采访普拉昌达
翻译：红石
Q. Which name do you prefer to be addressed by-Chairman, Prachanda or Puspa Kamal Dahal?
对于主席、普拉昌达或Puspa Kamal Dahal这三个称呼，您更喜欢哪个？
Prachanda: I prefer Chairman and Prachanda. The name Puspa Kamal Dahal represents a certain culture while the name Prachanda represents a feeling and ideology that intends to take the whole country forward independently. Therefore, I want that all of my friends and the Nepali people recognise me with the name Prachanda.
我更喜欢普拉昌达和主席。Puspa Kamal Dahal这个名字代表一种文化，而普拉昌达则代表一种致力于国家独立的思想感情。因此，我愿意所有的朋友和尼泊尔人民叫我普拉昌达。
Q. Your name has caused a big shake-up in the political sector. You remained underground for 25years. Now you have abandoned the underground life and entered public life. How do you feel?
您的名字已在政界引起巨大震撼。25年来，您一直处于地下状态。现在您摆脱了地下生活而公开露面，您有何感想？ Prachanda: I had a different life before I went underground. I used to teach Science in High School. Iwas involved in politics as well. I was a member of the Party. We boycotted the Panchayat elections of 2038 BS. Then I became totally underground. My situation after the 1990 popular movement was almost like it is today. I was open to the media and was not completely underground. A totally new process began after the start of the People's War (in 1996). Now the situation is somewhat similar to 1990.
在我从事地下活动前，我就有不同的生活。我曾在中学教书。那时我也参与了政治，我是一名党员。我们联合抵制2038 BS年的Panchayat选举。那时我就完全转入地下。我在1990年人民运动时的情况与今天很相似。我对新闻媒体是公开的而不是完全处于地下。完全转入地下是在1996年人民战争开始以后。现在的情形和1990年很相似。
Q. You have suddenly landed on the liberal political ground from a violent political base, especially afterthe 12-point understanding with the seven parties. What were the reasons behind the understanding?
您突然由暴力政治转为自由政治，特别是您在与七个政党达成12点协议后。那是为什么呢？
Prachanda: Our political base was not that rigid. Ours is a party which had to wage a People's War for just rights despite entering Parliament. We were the third largest party in Parliament.... We lawfully tried to raise some issues- issues related to nationality, people's daily requirements and democracy- even back then. We are not rigid. What we said even after starting the People's War is that we are not communists of the traditional type. Even after the start of the People's War, we have always been ready to accept the people's verdict. We had told the government during the very first peace talks let's hold constituent assembly elections; that the solution to our problem lay there. We were never into rigidpolitics. We were very much wide and flexible.
我们的政治观点并不是那么僵化。我们党是一个为了权利抛开议会而发动人民战争的党。我们曾是议会中第三大党。我们在议会中合法地提出一些与国家利益、人民日常需要和民主相关的问题。我们并不僵化教条。即使在发动人民战争后，我们所讲的是，我们并不是传统意义上的共产主义者。就是开始了人民战争，我们也一直准备接受人民的评论和裁决。我们告诉政府在第一次和谈中解决制宪会议选举问题，这是由当前形势决定的。我们从来没有政治僵化，而具有极大的灵活性。
Q. You took up arms for political change. Isn't that rigid?您使用武力来改变政治形势，那不是僵化吗？
Prachanda: To take up weapons is just a form of politics. I don't think you become rigid once you takeup arms. Taking up weapons is also a form of flexibility.
拿起枪杆子只是一种政治方式。我不认为你拿起枪就僵化了，那也是一种灵活。
Q. While talking about dialogue and sustainable peace, you once said, in a different context though, thateven the king was acceptable?
当谈到对话及持久和平，您曾经说过可以保留国王，尽管那是在不同的场合。
Prachanda: I didn't say this in that sense. What I had said is we are ready to accept what the people decide through constituent assembly elections. We are ready to accept if the people's verdict is in favour of the king or monarchy...The situation was different when Birendra was the king. In our understanding, the relevance of king and monarchy ended after the royal palace massacre.
我没有说过这种意思。我所说的是我们准备接受人民在制宪会议选举中做出的任何决定。如果人民的裁决是同意国王和君主制，那我们准备接受。现在形势和比兰德拉在位是不同了。我们认为，王室惨案后，国王和君主制就终结了。
Q. You said the relevance is over. But you twice held talks with the governments of the same irrelevantking. What was the compulsion?
您说君主制结束了，可是您却两次和一个不相关的国王领导的政府进行谈判，那怎么解释呢？
Prachanda: The relevance is over indeed. Right after the royal palace massacre, we said the institutionaldevelopment of republicanism was necessary in Nepal. We are still firm and clear on this stand. As regards to the issue of talks; a war was on between two forces. The initiatives for talks had been taken to avoid further bloodshed between the two sides. It didn't mean we accepted the relevance of monarchy.... When the UML and Deuba were in power last time, we said we would hold talks with the master not with the servants. Because we thought talks would mean something only if we knew who had the real power. Enough talking was done with the parties. But nothing happened.
君主制的确结束了。就在王室惨案后，我们说尼泊尔需要共和制。在这一点上我们一直很坚定和明确。关于和谈问题，战争是由双方进行的，进行和谈是为了再流血。那并不意味着我们接受君主制。当尼泊尔共产党（联合马列）和德乌怕当政时，我们说我们要和主子而不是奴才谈判。因为我们认为只有我们和真正的掌权者谈判，和谈才会有意义。与各政党进行了太多的对话，但一无所获。
采访普拉昌达（二）翻译：红石
Q. Had any international power pushed you or the seven parties towards each other?
有没有国际力量促使你们和七党联合呢？
Prachanda: It's both. If you talk negatively, Gyanendra pushed us towards each other. His negative actions pushed us towards each other. I doubt if this change would have come, hadn't some international powers, mainly India, urged us (Maoists and parties) to "do something" jointly. Had the seven parties somebody who could think independently, the country would have been different right after the royal palace massacre. The country would not have suffered this much, had there been leaders who could think for themselves. This time, India helped the 12-point understanding in a positive way.
包括两方面。从反面讲，是贾南德拉促使我们联合的。他的恶劣活动推动我们联合。我认为如果情况不是这样，如果没有国际势力，主要是印度促使我们和七党共同做些事情，使七党中的一些人能够独立思考，那么国家在王室屠杀后就不会象现在这样。国家就不会发生这么多事，使的一些领导人为他们个人的出路打算。这一次，印度在达成12点协议方面发挥了积极作用。
Q. To the seven parties?
是指七党吗？
Prachanda: Let's not say seven parties; mainly the UML and the Nepali Congress.
确切的说是七党中的尼泊尔共产党（联合马列）和尼泊尔大会党。
Q. But no understanding seems to be building between you and the UML?
但是你们和尼泊尔共产党（联合马列）之间并没有协议。
Prachanda: It is building as per the need. They, too, are in the seven-party alliance, apparently. Let's say it's building. But they might be thinking that they would lose their ground if we enter peaceful politics. In our opinion, it's a narrow-minded thought. Let me tell you one thing, our talks team was in Kathmandu during the first round of talks. We were raising the issue of constituent assembly. There was a wave of encouragement among the people. The then Prime Minister Deuba was not in a position to do anything on the issue of constituent assembly. After we realised that the peace talks were going nowhere, we planned to attack Dang. After the attacks in Dang, the UML leaders became happy. May be they thought that it would be a great loss to the UML if we entered peaceful politics. But this was not on our mind. We were concerned about giving an outlet to the crisis and taking the country forward. They thought "Thank God! You saved us" when we attacked Dang.
那要根据情况决定。他们显然也是七党联盟的成员。假如有协议，他们会认为一旦我们开始和平政治那他们会失去存在的条件。在我们看来，那是狭隘的。让我给你讲件事，我们的和谈小组在加德满都进行第一轮和谈时，我们提出制宪会议的问题。这对于人民是很大的鼓舞。可是当时的总理德乌帕却在制宪会议方面什么也没做。当我们认为和谈不会成功，我们就计划攻打Dang地区。打完Dang地区后，尼泊尔共产党（联合马列）的领导人高兴了，他们可能认为如果我们采取和平政治，那对联合马列来说是个巨大损失。但他们错了，我们想解决国内危机并使国家向前发展。他们在我们攻打Dang地区时想，“感谢上帝，你们救了我们”。
Q. A huge shakeup took place after the 12-point understanding. The House of Representatives was restored and it took a lot of decisions. You have come out in public and look very calm and relaxed. It seems as if you are eagerly enjoying the talks. What is the truth?
12点协议达成后，国家发生了巨大变化。议会被恢复并且做出很多决议。您公开露面，看上去显得很平静和轻松。似乎您一直渴望着这次和谈，是这样吗？
Prachanda: This is not the truth. Though it looks that way, it's not like that. The 12-point understanding was reached after a lot of hard work. This is something our party had been thinking about for the past four years. Our Indian friends had contacted and talked with us before the king's coup. We were in Rolpa then. But the right environment for it was created only after Gyanendra took over on February 1. There isn't that much brainwork done by the seven parties behind the 12-point understanding. It would have been great had this understanding been built on their (seven parties') own vision. The understanding lacks depth as it was formed amidst the negative moves of Gyanendra and India's advice (to the seven parties and Maoists) to move ahead positively. We had told the seven parties when they put forward the House restoration issue that this will provide the king and monarchy a back door. Even among the seven parties, six were not in favour of House restoration. But the Nepali Congress could not give up this slogan. Girijababu could not abandon it. We knew that a design was hidden in this (House restoration) slogan...We knew this a year before the 12-point understanding was reached. We went ahead with the understanding despite knowing this. We had no other alternative to agitate the Nepali people to a new level of awareness.
不是的。尽管看上去象是那样，但实际不是的。12点协议是经过很多艰苦工作才取得的。这是我们党过去4年一直在考虑的问题。我们的印度朋友在国王政变前就同我们联系和交流。我们那时在罗尔坡。但是达成协议的关键在于相互理解。七党能够以他们自己的眼光认识到问题是很难得的。但共识缺乏深入，因为那是贾南德拉的反面教育和印度对七党和毛派的积极建议下取得的。当七党提出恢复议会时，我们告诉他们那将为国王和君主制开后门。即使在七党中，有六个不同意恢复议会。但是尼泊尔大会党不能放弃这个口号。Girijababu 不能放弃它。我们知道在恢复议会的口号后面有阴谋。我们在一年前12点协议达成时就认识到了。尽管如此，我们还是抛开这些继续前进。除了进一步启发尼泊尔人民觉悟我们没有其他选择。
Q. Dialogue with India was on while you were still in Rolpa, before the King's coup?
在国王政变前，您始终在罗尔坡与印度对话吗？
Prachanda: We were in direct contact. Indian friends were there. They said the House should be restored. We said House restoration had no relevance. It is our conclusion that the people have stood up now in this fashion because of the 10-year long People's War and the 12-point understanding. The people stood up under the cover of the 12-point understanding because a direct confrontation through the People's War would lead to much bloodshed. House restoration was not the people's demand. This was not even on their mind. We have taken it (House restoration) as a recurrence of what happened in 1951. Therefore the people still need to be alert.
我们直接沟通。印度朋友也在那。他们说应该恢复议会。我们说那不合适。我们认为因为10年的人民战争和12点协议，尼泊尔人民已经站起来了。因为直接冲突的人民战争会导致大量流血，人民是在12点协议的影响下起来的。恢复议会不是人民的要求，也不是我们的。我们认为那是重复1951年发生过的事。因此，人民仍需保持警惕。
Q. But the mass movement has stopped?
但是群众运动不是已经结束了吗？
Prachanda: Rather than saying the movement stopped, let's say it was time to change its form. There was no situation for the movement to go on the way it was going. It was slightly divided as well. There was a change in the political situation.
不应说运动结束了，而应说运动的形式改变了。形势决定运动不能按从前的方式进行下去，它发生了一点重组，政治形势改变了。
Q. How can the talks move forward in such an artificial environment?
在这样人为的环境中，和谈如何发展？
Prachanda: This thing is very important. We will stick to the dialogue process till the end. It is our objective that a peaceful outlet is found. But the seven-party leaders are creating an artificial environment. They are doing the opposite. Not respecting the people's feelings. We want to keep the pressure on from the ground... If the talks fail, there will definitely be an October Revolution of its own kind in Nepal. We are ready to lead that revolution.
这很重要。我们会坚持把和谈进行到底。它是我们找到和平出路的目标。但是七党领导人在制造一个人为环境。他们在走向反面。他们不尊重人民的感情。我们想从下面对他们施加压力...如果和谈失败，那么一定会发生一场尼泊尔式的十月革命，我们准备领导那场革命。
Q. This means you are ready to wait till October?
那是指你们准备等到10月？
Prachanda: What I mean, in clear words, is that if the seven parties do not understand by October, then the situation will move towards an October Revolution.
我的意思是，如果我们和七党到10月还不能取得共识，那么形势会朝着十月革命的方向发展。
Q. How optimistic are you? Do you doubt Girija Prasad Koirala's honesty?
您怎么那样乐观？您怀疑科依拉那的诚意吗？
Prachanda: Rather than Koirala's honesty, how he will run the politics is the major thing. In my first meeting with him three years back, I had told him "You accept a republic, we will accept multiparty. Then the country will become new. Let's make a new Nepal." He had replied immediately, "Congress cannot go for a republic right now." He is still where he was three years back. He mentioned ceremonial king only yesterday. But this ceremonial thing doesn't work in Nepal. This proves how much rigid he is. This concept of a ceremonial king will not work- one, because of the army, and two, because of the king's own character.
如果不是科依拉那的诚意，他怎么能使政治发展呢？3年前，我第一次和他会晤时，我就告诉他，“ 你接受共和制，我们就接受多党制。那么新的国家就会诞生，让我们建立一个新尼泊尔。”他立刻回答说，“议会现在还不能建立共和制。”他今天还停滞在3年前的阶段。他昨天还提出君主立宪制。但是这种制度在尼泊尔实现不了。这说明他多么的僵化。君主立宪制不能实现，第一由于军队，第二由于国王的本质。
采访普拉昌达（三）
Q. Do you personally feel that the talks will be successful?
您个人认为和谈会成功吗？
Prachanda: I don't think the seven-party leaders are in favour of making the talks successful. And I don't think the international power centres, too, are in favour of giving Nepal and Nepalis a forward-looking exit from the current crisis by making the talks successful. To tell you directly, I haven't seen the signs for the talks to be successful. But again, the Nepali people want the talks to be successful and our party, too, wants the same. It depends on how much the people's and our party's initiatives can be taken forward. The talks will be successful if the pressure can be increased.
我认为七党领导人不会使和谈成功。我认为国际力量中心也不会同意让尼泊尔和尼泊尔人摆脱当前的危机，而通过和谈成功实现光明的前途。但是，尼泊尔人民和我党都希望和谈成功。那主要取决于尼泊尔人民和我党的积极主动。如果压力增加，那么和谈就会成功。
Q. What kind of republicanism is it that you have been talking about?
您谈到的共和主义是什么样子？
Prachanda: There shouldn't be the parliamentary republicanism, which is in practice in other countries, in Nepal. That doesn't solve the problem. There's no question of an autocracy. We need a republicanism of our own kind.
那不应该是议会制共和主义，那在其他国家和尼泊尔都实行过，那解决不了问题。那也不是独裁统治，我们需要自己的共和主义。
Q. You have envisioned a people's republic, no?
您已经想到了人民共和国，不是吗？
Prachanda: Mao Zedong's People's Republic cannot fulfill the needs of today's world. It cannot address today's political awareness appropriately. Mao said cooperative party theory; we called it competitive party theory. We have said let's move ahead from the conventional People's Republic and develop it as per the specialties of the 21st century.
毛泽东的人民共和国不能满足今天世界的需要。它不能恰当的解决今天的政治问题。毛说过合作党理论，我们称之为竞争党理论。我们说让我们从传统的人民共和国前进，发展它在21世纪的新特点。
Q. You do not follow the old concept of communism?
您不会遵循旧式共产主义吗？
Prachanda: Definitely not. What happened without competition? In the USSR, Stalin gave no place to competition and went ahead in a monolithic way. What was the result?
肯定是的。没有竞争会怎样呢？在苏联，斯大林没有允许竞争，而走向了单一模式。结果如何呢？
Q. Let's talk about the economy. The 21st century world is a free-market world. How do you see the open market economic policy?
让我们谈谈经济。21世纪的世界是自由市场的世界。您如何看待开放市场经济政策？
Prachanda: The economy should not be given a free rein in the name of a free market. We should take the middle way. Words like libralisation and globalisation are being much touted these days. But if you look at it closely, the very supporters of these theories have not implemented it in their own countries. The most powerful countries and America themselves have not implemented it. They have referred it to the poorest countries. Competition has been referred to undeveloped countries. We are against that policy. It's not right.
自由市场经济应该受到限制。我们会采用居中的模式。这段时间类似自由主义和全球化的词汇被极力宣传。最强大的国家和美国自己也没有实行。他们把这一模式引入最穷的国家。竞争被引入发展中国家。我们反对这种政策，那是错的。
Q. The country's resources haven't increased. The number of mouths to feed has. In such a situation, do you think the country's development is as easy as you are saying?
国家资源没有增加，而人口数量却增加了。在这种情况下，您认为国家发展会向您说的那样容易吗？
Prachanda: I think development is not that difficult a thing. The main thing is what policies and plans the state adopts and what kind of programmes it brings forward for the millions of people. This is the main thing. One hundred years back, we were very much self-dependent. We were not economically weaker than others. If you compare us with many countries of the world, you will know that we are not weak. Others kept progressing and we kept going downhill. We have serious problems in the policies adopted by the state. What I think is if the state has the right programmes and vision, then there are only 200 million mouths but 400 hands. If the 400 million hands are put to work in the right way, imagine where this could take the country in 10 years.
我认为发展并不是件困难的事。关键在于国家为千百万人民采用什么样的政策和计划。这是主要问题。一百年前，我们是独立的国家，我们与其他国家相比经济上并不弱。如果你把我们和当时世界上的其他国家相比，就会发现我们并不弱。其他国家继续前进而我们却退步了。我们在国家政策方面出现了严重问题。我认为如果国家实行正确的政策，那么就是2000万张嘴和4000万只手的问题。如果这4000万只手能正确使用，那么可以想象10年后会给国家带来什么呢？
However, we have to cut down certain things to save money. I have been saying that we do not need this 90 thousand-strong army. We can cut it down by 80 thousand. 10 thousand is enough. And then see how much capital we will have. It's not out of any personal grudge that we want to abolish the monarchy. They have amassed hundreds of billions of rupees. Imagine the kind of capital we will have if that is nationalised. Won't miracles happen if we then mobilise the 400 million hands? We can earn millions from our herbs. We have so much Yarchagumba. Let's open processing factories where it is found. Thousands will get jobs and we can earn hundreds of millions of rupees. Money will start growing there.
然而，我们为了节约资金必须砍掉一些项目。我一直认为我们不需要9万军队，可以减掉8万，1万就够了。那可以想象我们会有多少资金。废除君主制并不是某些个人的想法，因为它带来了数百万难民。想象一下如果这些资金被国有化，如果4000万只手被发动起来，那么奇迹就会产生。我们能够自力更生，我们可以新建许多工厂，成千上万的人可以被安置工作，这样我们可以赚很多钱。
Q. You just mentioned about decommissioning the army. What will happen to your army?
您刚刚提到复员军队，那么你们的军队呢？
Prachanda: The same for the Liberation Army. I have also been training them now. There is no use of increasing the number of our army, either. We don't have the status to beat the Indian or the Chinese army even with our 30 thousand and the 90 thousand-strong royal army. We don't have the status to beat anyone. You go through history; the only thing the Nepali Army has done after the Sugauli Treaty is to kill the people. We can ensure security by forming the people into a militia. If all citizens are made to undergo a five-year military training, there will be 250 million soldiers ready. Once that army is ready, even if India or China attacks, we can save the country. But even if we make a 500 thousand-strong army and keep it in barracks, it cannot fight anyone. What's the use of it?
解放军也是一样的。我现在也一直在训练他们。增加我们的军队是没有用的。我们不想用3万人民解放军和9万王军来和印度或中国军队打仗。我们不想和任何人开战。你可以回顾历史，尼泊尔军队在Sugauli 条约签定后做的唯一的事就是屠杀人民。我们可以使人民成为民兵来确保安全。如果所有公民都经过5年的军事训练，那么就会有2500万军队。如果那样的军队准备好，那么即使印度或中国的军队进攻，我们也可以拯救国家。但是如果我们有5万军队，而待在兵营里，它不能打仗，有什么用呢？
Q. That means the management of arms and armies will not be a stumbling block on the way to a constituent assembly?
那意味着管理武器和军队将不会成为制宪会议的障碍？
Prachanda: In my opinion, it will not and should not. If the seven-party leaders are really serious about the country, peace and development, this problem will not come. It will not come from our side. We are going to put forward this proposal. I have already talked about it. Let's cut down the armies of both sides. Let's train the people into a militia. The militia will maintain law and order. Let's keep the army only to train the people.
我认为，它不会是，也不应该是。如果七党领导人真正关心国家的和平与发展，那这个问题就不会出现。它将不会来自我们这边。我们将提出这一建议，我已经谈到过这一点。让我们削减双方的军队。让我们训练人民成为民兵。民兵会维护法律和秩序。让我们把军队仅用来训练人民。
Q. Business people, industrialists and entrepreneurs are a little concerned about you. Their fear is if you can give them so many problems as a powerful party, you will squeeze them once in power.
商人和企业主很少关心你们。他们担心一旦你们作为一个强有力的政党取得政权会给他们带来许多麻烦，会挤压他们。
Prachanda: We encourage those who want to develop industries in the country, create jobs, make profits and invest the profits in the country. We are organising a national meet of the capitalists. There, we will invite even those who disagree with us. We want that Nepal's capital does not go outside. We are clear that there will be no development in Nepal unless the capitalists can make some profit. But let that profit not be through exploitation and let it also not go abroad. We are also going to propose to the capitalists to invest where the most profit can be made. We should introduce a strict law to stop those who earn here and deposit the money in America or India.
我们会鼓励发展国家工业，提供就业，赢利和在国内投资。我们将组织资本家的国家会议。我们会邀请那些即使不同意我们的人参加。我们不想让尼泊尔资本流到国外。我们清楚如果资本家不赢利，那尼泊尔就不能发展。但是利润不能来自剥削和国外。我们会建议资本家利润丰厚的投资项目。我们会制定严格的法律禁止在尼泊尔赚钱而在美国和印度存钱。
(Interview by Kishor Nepal)
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