普拉昌达接受阿南德·斯瓦茹普·沃尔玛采访（上）

Interview of Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) leader Prachand by Anand Swaroop Verma

普拉昌达接受阿南德·斯瓦茹普·沃尔玛采访（上）

29 July 2006

Q. Did you ever anticipate that within 10 years of initiating the People's War it would reach such a great height?

问：您有没有预料到人民战争在10年中会发展到这么高的水平？

A. I would like to tell you that towards the last leg of our preparations for launching the People's War, we did discuss about the progress sequence of Nepalese People's War. The pace of its progress was thoroughly discussed and finally, we reached at the conclusion that contradictions existing within the country and the prevailing external situation combined together to facilitate the speedy progress of the People's War.

答：要知道，我们在进行发动人民战争的最后准备时，就探讨了尼泊尔人民战争的进程问题。我们充分讨论了战争进程，最后得出结论，国内矛盾和国外形势一起加速了人民战争的进程。

Q. Some people opine that the timing of your starting an armed struggle was wrong since the objective situations were not ripe at that time. After the dismemberment of Soviet Union in 1990, the communists, all over the world, were feeling let down and post-1990 the imperialist forces were gaining ground. Was it the right time to launch People's War?

问：一些人认为你们确定发动武装斗争的时间是错误的，因为当时的客观条件并不成熟。苏联在1990年解体以后，全世界的共产主义者的情绪都很低落，而且90年代后期帝国主义势力正在扩张。在那时发动人民战争的合适吗？

A.    True, the conditions at that time, were really adverse. Post-Soviet Union dismemberment, the imperialist forces were celebrating the demise of communism. On the other hand, Peru's Maoist revolution got a severe blow with the arrest of Com. Gonzalo. Thus the international scenario was really very unfavourable for our action. But when we analyzed the situation, we found that within Nepal people's aspirations had got a fillip after the 1990 pro-democracy movement and they were under a false hope of improvement. In order to remove this false sense of hope, we even entered the parliament and for three years tried to explain to the masses that post-1990 agreement was not the real agreement, it was not in the interest of the people. We repeated the same inside the parliament also. We told people that they have been betrayed. Thus after three years of continuous campaigning, we found that conditions, within Nepal, were getting conducive for launching People's War. All the work undertaken by us during the parliamentary sittings and debates convinced us that conditions at the national level were quite ripe for the launching of the People's War. Though it is true that, at the international level, conditions were not as favourable but then this was exactly the time when our valor was needed to be tested. We thought that if we could move forward by using our internal conduciveness to remove the general sense of despair spreading fast throughout the world, then we can contribute a bit towards bringing some change in the prevailing situation. Moreover, it was our well thought-out strategy. We are convinced now that our strategy was right. By initiating People's War amidst trying conditions we got an opportunity to show that revolutions are not dead. We could tell the world that 21st century will again be a century of revolutions.

答：是的，当时的条件的确不利。苏联解体后，帝国主义正庆祝共产主义的灭亡。另外，秘鲁毛主义革命由于冈萨罗同志的被捕而遭受严重挫折。因此，国际形势对于我们的行动确实非常不利。但是，当我们分析了形势后，我们发现在尼泊尔国内，人民在1990年民主运动后革命热情调动起来了，而他们又受骗了，认为生活会改善。为了消除群众的错误认识，我们不惜参加议会，3年中我们努力向群众解释，1990协议不是真正的协议，它不能代表人民的利益。我们在议会中也反复强调。我们告诉人民他们被出卖了。于是，经过3年不断的斗争，我们发现在尼泊尔国内发动人民战争的有利条件逐渐具备了。我们在议会中进行的全部争论使我们相信发动一场全国人民战争的条件完全成熟了。尽管当时在国际范围内，条件确实不利，但那正好可以考验一下我们的勇气。我们认为，如果我们能够利用内部的有利条件来消除在全世界迅速扩散的失望情绪，那么我们就可以为部分扭转国际形势做一点贡献。而且，那是我们经过充分考虑了的战略任务。我们现在认为我们的战略是对的。通过在艰难条件下发动人民战争使我们有机会证明革命并没有死亡。我们可以告诉世界，21世纪仍然是革命的世纪。

Q. What was your final objective at that time?

问：你们当时的最终目标是什么？

A.    Looking at the semi-colonial and semi-feudal conditions prevailing in Nepal, our immediate aim was to attain new democratic revolution but like any other communist our final objective was also to establish socialism and communism.

答：从尼泊尔目前半殖民地半封建的形势来看，我们的最近目标是取得新民主主义革命的胜利。但是同其他所有共产主义者一样，我们的最终目标也是建立社会主义和共产主义。

Q. But then you had to change your objective. Shouldn't it be called opportunism?

问：但是，您已经被迫改变了目标。那是否应该叫做机会主义呢？

A.    On this question a lengthy debate is still going on. We are not taking recourse to this new strategy due to some weakness. In fact, we are trying to move ahead only after gaining strength. People should understand that we have changed our policy not because of some sort of setback but due to the strength derived from the People's War. Secondly, we are forced to bring change in our functioning due to the existing balance of forces at the international level. But the first reason is primary. Having gained enough strength any revolutionary party tends to acquire greater flexibility on its way to reaching the seat of power. This is what happened in China also, when Mao Tse-tung, before meeting Chiang Kai Shek in 1945 for the talks regarding the formation of a coalition government, had already decided, in 1940, about reaching the goal of New democratic Revolution. And this could become possible since by that time the communist party had been able to gain lots of strength. Thus, Mao's proposal of a coalition was not an act of weakness but an evidence of CPC having gained strength over the years. Similarly, if we are currently talking about the democratic republic or if we engaged in peace talks or if we are here in Kathmandu, this is the result of our strength and not weakness.Even Lenin was forced to enter into Brest-Litovsk Treaty with Germany at the time of October Revolution. At that time, many in Lenin's party said that it was, like an act of surrender but it was not that. Rather, it was the result of Lenin and Bolshevik Party, the result of their gaining strength. In the same way, the flexibility which you see in our tactics is not the result of our deviation but that of strength.

答：关于这个问题一直存在着长期的争论。我们不会在这个新战略方面出于软弱而对外求助。实际上，我们在力量发展后一直在努力前进。人们应该理解我们改变政策不是因为某种失败，而是因为我们从人民战争中取得了力量。其次，我们被迫改变政策是因为当前国际力量的平衡。而第一个原因是主要的。任何革命党在具有足够力量时都将在夺取政权的过程中采取更大的灵活性。这中情况在中国也出现过。1940年，毛泽东就已经确定取得新民主主义革命胜利的目标，而这是他和蒋介石1945年会谈关于组建联合政府以前的事。而这是因为当时中国共产党拥有较大的实力才成为可能的。那么，当时毛的联合建议并不是软弱的表现，而是证明中国共产党经过多年的发展已经具有相当实力。同样，我们今天谈论民主共和国，我们进行和平谈判以及我们来到加德满都，这证明我们有实力而不是软弱。即使列宁在十月革命时也被迫同德国签定了不列斯特-里窝斯克条约。在当时，列宁党内的许多人都认为那是投降的表现，但它不是的。相反，它是列宁和布尔什维克党具有实力的表现。同样道理，您看到的我们灵活的战术并不是我们的偏离，而是一种实力。

Q. Somewhere you have said that current phase is a transition phase. What do you mean by it?

问：您曾经说过当前阶段是一个过渡阶段。那是什么意思？

A.    We have said so in the context of democratic republic. It means that if we look at the current international balance of forces as also the regional balance of forces in South Asia then it is difficult to reach the centre of power. We will have to take a diversion. That's why our moving forward after reaching an understanding with the liberal faction of the bourgeoise is being called a transitionary phase by us. If we look at deeply at the essence of that which we are calling democratic republic then we would find that it was none other than the people's republic. I am saying this because within that we have raised the class question, nationality question, gender question and the regional question. If all these four issues are solved then it amounts to having new democratic republic. Contentwise it is fine but since we are also talking about the peaceful competition with the bourgeoise, its form looks like a bourgeois democracy whereas it is a New Democracy in essence. That's why we said that it could be a transitional democracy. We feel that only this way we can fulfil people's aspiration for a revolution in the current global scenario and can somewhat contribute towards international communist movement and world proletarian revolution

答：那是我谈民主共和国时说的。意思是说，如果我们认识到当前的国际力量平衡和南亚地区的力量平衡，就会知道取得全国政权是困难的。我们将不得不改变策略。于是我们在同资产阶级自由派别达成共识后继续发展双方的关系，我们称这个发展阶段为过渡阶段。如果我们深刻认识我们所说的民主共和国的本质，那么就会发现那只能是人民共和国。我这样说是因为在共和国方面我们提出了阶级问题，民族问题，性别问题和地区问题。如果这四个问题都解决了，那么就等于是建立了新民主共和国。尽管我们也谈到同资产阶级和平竞争，共和国的形式看起来象是资产阶级民主，但它的内容是好的，它在本质上是新民主主义的。所以我们称其为过渡民主。我们认为只有这样，我们才能在当前国际形势下满足人民的要求并为国际共产主义运动和世界无产阶级革命做出一定的贡献。

Q. But this is not supposed to be your final goal, it is much beyond this. You have just said that you have reached this stage through gradual strengthening of your party. Now efforts are on to disarm the People's Liberation Army (PLA), the main source of your strengthening process. How you are going to counter that?

问：但是这不是你们的最终目标，它离最终目标还有很大距离。您说过您通过逐步加强你们党的力量，这使你们已经达到了这一过渡阶段。现在的任务是解除人民解放军的武装，这一你们党最主要的力量。您将怎么办？

A.    We feel that we have already countered them successfully. They have been defeated and we have been victorious. The question of the management of army was solved by us in Delhi itself when 12-point understanding was reached. Now what these people are doing is counter to 12-point understanding and historical mass movement. We are still being requested by the Nepalese people, Nepal's intellectual section and the civil society not to give up our arms. They say that if we give up our arms, the autocracy will again have its say and these parliamentary parties will be destroyed overnight. Those who are asking us to give up arms are unable to comprehend this. When we talk with the leaders of these political parties we say that had we not been armed, there would have been no 12-point understanding. Had we not been armed, Deuba would have never been able to come out of prison. Had we not been armed, many of you would have been killed because for a feudal monarchy, which murdered its blood-relations inside the Palace, these parliamentary parties are of no importance. These parties have nothing to fall back upon. During 12-13 years of their rule, they have been so corrupt that they have lost their credibility.They have no base among the masses nor do they have any access to arms. This autocracy could have easily eliminated them. But they were saved because we were armed. We also told them that our weapons only made the revival of your parliament possible, you are not credited with it, the credit goes to PLA. We are also saying that you have become ministers and prime minister because PLA is armed. Royal Nepal Army (RNA) has never been active in the cause of democracy. On the contrary it has suppressed all the people's movements which took place since 1951. It has always been loyal towards feudal aristocracy. Therefore the top priority should be given to the democratization of this army. When the 12-point understanding was reached we had told you clearly that we would not give up our weapons. During those days king Gyanendra was conducting farcical municipal elections and these political parties had requested us not to give up arms in any condition otherwise the dictatorship of Gyanendra will unleash a reign of terror. And now when because of these very guns you are in the parliament then you are saying that our weapons are creating trouble for you? The people of Nepal will not accept this. The people know how important are our weapons for them and that if we are disarmed, it will bring havoc in the country. But their class character and selfishness is forcing these political parties to say otherwise. Besides they are also feeling the external pressure. US is openly pressurising these political parties and they are also feeling the pressure of India. These pressures are forcing them to say such things. But we are of the view that even this battle has been won by us. When 8-point agreement was reached at Baluatar (PM Koirala's official residence) on June 16, 2006 then it was decided that both the armies and their weapons will be monitored with the cooperation of the UN. Now raising this issue again amounts to going back on the agreement. If these parties retrace back for the agreement then, we feel, people will not bear them. And a single appeal by us will again bring the masses on the streets. That's why I say that we have won this round too.

答：我们认为我们已经成功地解决了这一问题。他们失败了而我们胜利了。管理军队的问题，我们在德里签定12点协议的时候就解决了。现在他们这些人所做的是违背12点协议和历史性的群众运动的。尼泊尔人民，尼泊尔知识界和公民社团也都一直要求我们不要放下武器。他们说如果我们放下武器，那么独裁就会死灰复燃，而那些议会党派会立刻垮台。那些要求我们放下武器的人不能认识到这一点。当我们与议会政党交谈时，我们说，如果我们没有武装，就不会有12点协议。如果我们没有武装，德乌帕就永远不可能从监狱里出来。如果我们没有武装，你们中许多人就会因为封建君主而被杀掉，这个国王已经在皇宫中杀了他的亲人，你们议会党派更是无足轻重。议会党是没有退路的。在他们统治的12-13年中，他们因为极端腐败而丧失了威信。他们在群众中没有基础，自己也没有武装。独裁君主可以轻易地消灭他们。但是因为我们有武装，他们才得救。我们还对他们讲，因为我们的武器才使你们的议会得到恢复，荣誉不应给你们，而应给人民解放军。我们还说，你们能成为部长和总理是因为有武装的人民解放军。尼泊尔王军从来没有在民主事业中积极过。相反，它镇压了1951年以来的所有人民运动。它一直忠于封建贵族。因此，首要任务应该是尼泊尔王军的民主化。在签定12点协议时，我们就已经清楚地告诉你们，我们不会放下武器。那时候，国王贾南得拉正在进行可笑的市政选举，议会政党们要求我们无论如何不能放下武器，否则，贾南得拉专政会变成恐怖统治。可现在当你们因为我们的武装而可以待在议会时，你们就说我们的武装给你们造成了麻烦？尼泊尔人民是不会接受的。人民知道我们的武装对他们有多么重要，如果我们解除武装，那么就会给国家带来一场浩劫。但是，这些政党的阶级性和自私自利使他们不顾这些。此外，他们还感到外面的压力。美国公开地对这些政党施加压力，并且，他们还感到印度的压力。这些压力迫使他们这样说。但是我们即使在取得这场斗争胜利后也不会改变观点。2006年6月16日在巴鲁塔尔（总理科依拉那的官邸）签定8点协议时就确定双方的军队和武器由参与合作的联合国监督。现在重提这个问题等于回到这个协议上。如果这些政党倒退到当时的协议上，我们认为，人民是不能忍受他们的。我们会专门呼吁再次把群众带到街上。因此，我说这一轮较量我们也赢了。

Q. But these parties are delaying the implementation of 8-point agreement.

问：但是这些政党正拖延履行8点协议。

A.    Yes, this is precisely the main thing. We never pressed for the 8-point agreement. It was reached at Baluatar, the residence of prime minister Koirala. We were brought to his residence by home minister Sitaula so the question of our putting the pressure does not arise. On the contrary, it were we who must be feeling the pressure because we had been brought to Baluatar. We had a fierce discussion for 10 to 11 hours on the question of dissolving the parliament before the agreement was reached. We want that after drafting an interim constitution an interim government should be set up and parliament be dissolved. After this we would also dissolve the governments in areas controlled by us and will work under the interim arrangements. These things became the part of the agreement. But, later, Washington started putting pressure on these parties and India also wielded some pressure. Perhaps earlier they did not consult the Indian government on this issue. These leaders are not habitual of thinking independently and they are least bothered about the lot of the Nepalese people. These leaders pay little attention on what the people desire, what are their feelings and aspirations. Their main attention is always focussed on what US is saying or what India is saying. I think this the main weakness of Nepalese parliamentary parties. And this weakness has been playing havoc with the expectations and aspirations of the people of Nepal since 1951. Now also they have sidetracked the agreement to which they have been a party. Thus, these leaders are befooling themselves and are committing hara-kiri because Delhi and Washington cannot rescue them. Only the people of Nepal can rescue them. If, in the eyes of the people, these leaders prove themselves as honest and firm then only their political survival will be possible. Otherwise if they keep looking towards Delhi and Washington, then Nepalese people will not allow them to hold the ground. We hope that they will try to understand this. I am still hopeful of their comprehending this before it is too late.

 答：是的，这正是关键问题。我们从来没有施加压力来达成8点协议。它是在总理科依拉那的住处巴鲁塔尔签定的。我们是由内政部长西陶拉带到他的住处的，因此不存在我们施加压力的问题。相反，因为我们被带到巴鲁塔尔后感到了压力。我们在达成协议之前，在关于解散议会的问题上进行了10到11小时的激烈争论。我们要求在起草了临时宪法以后，就应该建立临时政府和解散议会。这之后，我们也将解散我们管理的各地方政府并根据临时政策来工作。这些事成为协议的一部分内容。但是，之后，华盛顿开始对这些政党施加压力，而且印度也制造压力。或许早些时候他们关于这个问题没有同印度政府商量。这些领导人不善于独立思考，他们很少为尼泊尔人民的事操心。他们很少关心人民的要求，人民的感情和愿望。他们总是主要关注美国的态度和印度的态度。我认为这是尼泊尔议会政党的主要弱点。自从1951年以来，这个弱点就一直阻碍人民的愿望和要求的实现。现在，他们又作为签定协议的一方而违反了协议。这样，这些领导人正在愚弄他们自己并且在自杀，因为德里和华盛顿不能拯救他们。只有尼泊尔人民才能拯救他们。如果，在人民眼中，这些领导人能证明他们是忠诚而坚定的，那么他们的政治生命就可能幸存。否则，如果他们继续仰望德里和华盛顿，那么尼泊尔人民就不会允许他们存在。我们希望他们能尽力理解这一点。我仍然希望他们的理解，以免为时过晚。

Q. Tell me at a time when American attitude is quite negative, and due to their class interests, the political parties are creating all sorts of obstacles, what can be the worst scenario?

问：请问如果美国由于自己的阶级利益而导致他的态度很差，政党们制造很多麻烦，那么最坏的结果会怎样呢？

It is due to their class interests that US and feudal elements, comprador and bureaucratic capitalist classes want to halt and destroy this political process. At the time of 12-point agreement also US had openly said that the agreement will benefit the Maoists most and the political parties should not have entered into the agreement. Later, the US said that these parties should withdraw themselves from the obligation of the agreement. But such was the situation in Nepal that these parties were compelled to be with us. This time also when 8-point agreement was reached at the residence of the prime minister, the US ambassador James Moriarty openly said that this agreement is the agenda of Maoists. I think that the agreement is the agenda of the country, of the people and is representative of everybody's feelings. We feel that the experience of the Nepalese people is helping them to identify who are in the favour of peace and who are against it; who are pro-democracy and who are anti-democracy. One thing is sure that these political leaders cannot politically alienate us. Since you have asked about the worst scenario, I feel that they might conspire to give effect to some tragedy. For, we are presently in Kathmandu, and this is an area of their influence. We have seen that internationally when any revolutionary or democratic party becomes immense popular and starts challenging the imperialist forces then imperialism, as a last resort, orders killing of some of the leaders. After eliminating main leadership, divisions are created within the party. This has happened in many countries of the world. I think in the worst of the situations this can happen here also, but we are quite vigilant. We have also warned the Nepalese people against this danger. While currently being in Kathmandu we have received requests to remain alert and these requests have poured in from the people, intelligentsia, civil society and other segments of the country. This suggests that there does exist danger to our lives. We are trying our utmost to make their designs fail.

 答：由于美国和封建分子，官僚买办资产阶级的阶级利益，他们想阻止和破坏这一政治进程。在签定12点协议时，美国就公开说协议会更有利于毛主义者，政党们不应该签定协议。之后，美国就说这些政党应该退出他们在协议中应遵守的义务。但是尼泊尔的形势迫使这些政党与我们合作。当在总理住处签定8点协议时，美国大使詹姆斯·莫里艾迪公开说，这份协议是毛主义者的纲领。我认为这份协议是国家和人民的纲领，代表了人民的思想感情。我们认为尼泊尔人民的经验会帮助他们辨别谁赞成和平，谁反对和平；谁拥护民主，谁反对民主。可以确定这些政治领导人不会在政治上与我们疏远。你刚才问到最坏的结果，我认为他们可能策划阴谋来制造悲剧。因为，我们现在在加德满都，这是他们的地盘。我们知道，在国际上当任何一个革命的和民主的政党受到广泛拥护并开始挑战帝国主义的力量时，那么帝国主义会诉诸最后的手段，命令杀害一些领导人。清除主要领导人后，就分裂党。这在世界上许多国家都发生过。我认为最坏的结果是，这里也发生同样的事，但我们非常警惕。我们也警告尼泊尔人民注意危险。当前，在加德满都我们收到许多关于保持警惕的要求，来自人民，知识界，公民社团和国家的其他群体的热情关心向潮水一样涌入。这表明我们的生命的确存在着危险。我们会尽最大努力使敌人阴谋不会得逞。

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