普拉昌达接受阿南德·斯瓦茹普·沃尔玛采访（下）

普拉昌达接受阿南德·斯瓦茹普·沃尔玛采访（下）

Q. In February 2006 during an interview, you had said that important changes will take place in the Nepalese politics after 6th of April and you were proved right. Could you now tell by what time the Nepalese politics will be able to take a correct course?

问：2006年2月在您接受采访时，您说尼泊尔政局会在4月6日后发生重大变化，结果证明您的话是对的。现在您能否讲一下，什么时候尼泊尔政治会进入正轨？

A.    At that time we had made predictions only after objectively analysing the political forces and political events and we were proved right. We think that within one year scenario will be crystal-clear. May be things can become clearer even within 8 to 10 months or even less than that. We want that things sho)uld be clear within 3-4 months and we are making deliberate efforts towards that direction.

答：当时我们是经过对政治力量和政治事件的客观分析之后才做出的预见，并被证明是对的。我们认为在一年之内形势就会明朗了。或许问题在8到10个月，甚至更短时间就会变得清楚了。我们希望3到4个月就解决问题，我们一直在朝着这个目标积极努力。

Q. Whether you see any possibility of Jan Andolan-3 ( People's Movement-3 taking place? Can we see the emergence of a front of those who are in support of the Republic?

问：您是否认为可能会发生第三次人民运动？我们会看到一个支持共和国的统一阵线出现吗？

A.    This is a very important question. We feel that the chances of initiation of a third movement are very much there if those in the government do not comprehend the needs and aspirations of Nepalese people. But this will be a decisive movement. If these leaders are able to comprehend the feeling of the people then the chances are there of establishing a democratic republic through the elections of the constituent assembly and without initiating a movement. But the tendencies currently evident suggest that these leaders will not comprehend it. Therefore, the danger has increased. In such a condition things will be clear even before the process of electing the constituent assembly is initiated. The creation of the republic will be announced. Proceeding through the path of the constituent assembly may delay the announcement for some time, may be one year or so but if peoples movement-3 is started then this announcement could be made much earlier. We are trying our utmost to make this transition peaceful. For the last one and half months while staying at Kathmandu we met people from various sections and we are continuing to tell them that we are not going back and we will be staying here only. Hence, we are exchanging views with the people of Newar community. We keep on telling them that 237 years ago the Shah of Gorkhas Prithvi Narayan Shah had committed atrocities on your people. At that time your leader was not good. Your king had amassed wealth which made him a debauch. Whereas the king of Gorkhas did not have much money. So he tried to establish himself by wielding his sword. At that time your people opposed him tooth and nail. The commander of Prithvi Narayan Shah was killed in Kirtipur and one eye of Shah's brother got damaged. Now the time has come for you to stand up. We have arrived in Kathmandu after smashing the roots of 237- year old feudalism from the villages. Now it is your turn to make next revolution possible. In this endeavour we are with you. We keep on talking like this and are having a positive reaction to it. I feel that once they stand-up in Kathmandu, it won't take even 19 days to make the king run away.

 答：这是一个非常重要的问题。我们认为如果政府中的那些人不能了解尼泊尔人民的愿望和要求，那么发动第三次人民运动的可能性就很大。但这会是一场决定性的运动。如果这些领导人能够了解人民的感情，那么就可能通过制宪会议选举来建立民主共和国而不必发动一场运动。但是当前的趋势明显地表明，这些领导人不会领悟。因此，危险增加了。在这样的情况下，在进行制宪会议选举以前问题就明了了。共和国将被宣布成立。通过制宪会议的道路可能会把宣布日期往后推迟一段时间，可能会是一年。但是如果发动第三次人民运动，那么宣布日期会大大提前。我们正全力以和平方式过渡。来到加德满都这大约一个半月中，我们会见了各方面的群众，我们不断地告诉他们我们不会离开，只会一直留在这里。此外，我们正和Newar 部落的朋友交流看法。我们一再地告诉他们，237年以前，国王Gorkhas Prithvi Narayan Shah就对你们的人民进行屠杀。那时，你们的国王不好。你们的国王因为聚敛财富而堕落。但是国王Gorkhas并没有获得大量的钱财。于是，他试图用他的剑来实现。当时，你们的人民强烈的反对他。统治者Prithvi Narayan Shah被杀了，他兄弟的一只眼睛也瞎了。现在到了你们应该站起来的时候了。我们在扫除了农村地区237年旧封建制度后来到加德满都。现在轮到你们继续推进这场革命了。在这场革命中我们同你们并肩战斗。我们不断地这样说并得到了积极的回应。我认为一旦他们在加德满都站起来，那么甚至用不了19天就会把国王赶跑。
Q. You said that you will now follow a peaceful struggle but People's Liberation Army (PLA) has put up its camps all around Kathmandu which give the impression of a forthcoming war. What is the secret behind this?

问：您说你们现在要进行和平斗争，但是人民解放军却驻扎在加德满都周围的军营里，这会让人感到一场战争就要来临了。这背后的秘密是什么？

A.    We have stationed PLA in temporary camps for monitoring purposes. We have put on these camps for peace talks and not for initiating war. Moreover, PLA is required to do regular exercises and training. In a sense, this is also our preparation to meet any eventuality in case the Royal Army plays some prank or takes recourse to some sort of conspiracy. In this sense, of course, it can be called our preparations. One reason behind putting up these camps is also to let people go to these camps and see our army. Our goal, at least now, is not to wage war. You can look at it both ways- it can be a preparation to meet any eventuality and can also be an effort towards pushing forward the peace process. If the enemy creates some trouble then it should be considered a preparation and if the peace process is moving smoothly then it should be considered a contribution.

答：我们把人民解放军驻扎在临时营地是为了起监督的作用。我们建立这些军营是为了和平谈判而不是发动战争。而且，人民解放军需要进行日常的军事训练。在一定意义上，这也是我们应对万一王军制造麻烦或策划阴谋而出现的不测事件而准备的。从这个意义上讲，当然，它可以称之为我们的防备。另一个建立军营的原因也是让群众到这些军营去并看看我们的军队。我们的目的，至少现在不是为了发动战争。你可以从两方面来理解，一方面是为了防止不测，另一方面是也是为了努力推进和平进程。如果敌人制造麻烦，那应该认为是一种准备；如果和平进程能顺利，那应该认为是一种贡献。

Q. We have seen in the past in Nepal as well as other countries, the so-called revolutionary communists got degenerated once they occupied the seat of power. If you come to power what is the guarantee that you will not be degenerated? What measures you have taken to save your leadership from falling down?

问：我们过去在尼泊尔和其他国家都看到，所谓的革命共产主义者一旦取得政权就变得退化了。如果你们取得政权，如何保证你们不会退化变质？你们采取了什么措施来防止领导层不蜕变？

A.   This is a very important question. We had tried to raise this debate within the party at the time of making preparation for peoples war. We should not try to mechanically implement the experiences of the revolution of 20th century and should keep in mind the specificities of 21st century and should also keep in mind the specificities of our struggle. We had also raised this debate as how to develop further the science of revolution. Many such types of serious debates were regularly held within the party. After the five years experience of People's War we did analyse a group of thoughts but decided not to follow a particular model. Two years later we organised a historical meeting in which we passed a resolution entitled 'Development of Socialism in 21st Century.' We consider this resolution as a milestone in course of development of our thought and ideas. The resolution says that a multiparty competition should be organised within a constitutional framework under both dictatorship of the proletariat and people's democratic dictatorship. If competition will not be there then the whole society will become more and more mechanical and metaphysical. There is an objective rule of society. We can't forcefully take people to a particular direction for long.If done so it always results in rebellion. This is what happened in Russia. The same happened in China too. Without learning from these experiences if we keep on repeating it then it will mean that we don't accept Marxism as science but as a dogma. We are not dogmatists. A real Marxist can never be a dogmatist. Comrade Stalin created a system wherein if you are in conflict with someone you remained in conflict with that person or system forever and if there is unity with someone it is taken to the extreme level. For this reason a metaphysical tendency dominated over the entire communist movement which Mao Tsetung tried to overcome through Cultural Revolution but the influence of Russian socialism and Stalin was such that even Mao could not succeed in his efforts. The same model was complemented in China too but after the death of Mao everything changed in China. After the Chinese revolution there existed eight political parties in China which did not support feudalism and imperialism. Mao allowed them to continue to work because he wanted them to support the Communist Party. We have turned this 'support' to competition. We feel that in order to make a society lively, the proletarian party should also take up the task of organising competition. It does not mean that we are moving towards bourgeoise democracy. We have clearly written in that document that this is organising competition under the dictatorship of the proletariate. People might get the impression that this is also a kind of moving towards bourgeois democracy but it is not so. The difference lies in that we are talking about organising the competition in the leadership of the proletariate whereas they organise the competition under the leadership of the bourgeoise. Immediately after the October Revolution, Lenin gave a call to organise the socialist competition. He had talked about the economic policy and in the field of ideology had talked about organising the socialist competition. We think that had Lenin been alive for another five years, he would have certainly gone further ahead towards organising the political competition. He would not have allowed the kind of repression within the party which was unleashed by Stalin. Though Stalin was a committed revolutionary but it is one thing to be committed and completely different to apply science in a proper way. After so many years we are again falling back upon Lenin and trying to further develop his principle. That's why we passed a resolution on 'Development of Socialism in 21st Century.' We feel that it is a revolution within a revolution, a big revolution at the level of ideology, an important development of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. And we consider this a solid ideological base which will prevent our party from getting corrupted and degenerated. We will welcome the critics, we will get those in front rows who are ready to pinpoint our weaknesses, thus we will be saved from disgrace. If we commit any folly, then another proletarian party will emerge to replace us.

答：这是一个非常重要的问题。我们在准备发动人民战争的时候就试图在党内提出这个问题。我们不应该机械地运用20世纪革命的经验，应该记住21世纪的特点，还应该记住我们斗争的特点。我们也提出了关于怎样进一步发展革命科学的问题。许多这样重要的问题经常在党内讨论。在人民战争进行5年后，我们分析了一些思想但是没有决定采纳任何具体的一种。2年后，我们组织了一次历史性的会议，会上我们通过了一项决议，即“发展21世纪的社会主义”。我们认为这项决议是我们思想观念发展过程中的里程碑。决议指出，多党竞争应该在无产阶级专政和人民民主专政的宪法结构内组织。如果没有竞争，那么整个社会将变得越来越呆板和形而上学。社会发展有客观规律。我们不能长期强制把人民引向特定的方向。如果我们那样做，也会引起人民造反。这已在俄国发生了。在中国也同样发生了。如果我们不吸取这些经验教训而继续重复，那么就意味着我们没有把马克思主义作为科学而作为教条。我们不是教条主义者。一个真正的马克思主义者永远不能成为教条主义者。斯大林同志创立了一种体制，在这个体制中，如果你和某人有矛盾，你就会永远保持同这个人或制度的矛盾；如果与某人联合就会导致极端。因为这个原因，一种形而上学的倾向支配着整个共产主义运动，毛泽东试图通过文化革命来战胜它，但是由于俄国社会主义和斯大林的影响如此强烈，毛的努力没有成功。同样的情况也在中国出现了，在毛去世后中国的一切都变了。中国新民主主义革命胜利后，在中国存在着8个反对封建主义和帝国主义的政党。毛允许他们继续工作因为他想让他们支持共产党。我们把这种“支持”变为竞争。我们认为要使社会充满活力，无产阶级政党也应该组织竞争。那不是指我们走向资产阶级民主。我们已经在决议中明确地指出，组织竞争是在无产阶级专政的条件下进行。人们或许会认为这也是走向资产阶级民主，但它不是。区别在于，我们谈的是在无产阶级领导下组织竞争，而他们是在资产阶级领导下组织竞争。十月革命后，列宁就立刻号召组织社会主义竞赛。他谈到经济政策和在意识形态领域组织社会主义竞争。我们认为如果列宁多活5年，他一定会朝着组织政治竞争方向进一步前进。他不会允许象斯大林进行的那种党内压迫。尽管斯大林是一个忠诚的革命家，但是忠诚是另一回事，这与正确地运用科学是完全不同的。经过许多年后，我们再一次回到列宁的原则并努力进一步发展他的原则。这就是我们通过“发展21世纪社会主义”这一决议的原因。我们认为它是革命中的革命，是理论水平上的大革命，是马列毛主义的重要发展。我们认为这一牢固的理论基础可以避免我们党变得腐败和变质。我们会欢迎批评，我们会提拔重用指出我们缺点的人，这样我们就会永保青春。如果我们犯了愚蠢的错误，那另一个无产阶级政党就会出现并取代我们。

Q. Does it also involve the system which will save you from liquidation?

问：要防止你们出现僵化，也包括制度方面的因素吗？

A.    I do think this way. We will have to generate a system. Through revolution we will reach there and organise the competition. We are not talking of surrendering to the bourgeoise democracy. This is not at all connected with that. Some are not getting it. We are repeatedly saying that we will reach there through revolution. While making our bases throughout the country we have already got some indications of degeneration. When you have enough resources, the image of your party starts building up, it starts getting the respect from the people, the leader of the party becomes important then the danger of degeneration also crops up. We have already seen this. The same happened in Russia and China and its embryonic form has been seen in a symbolic way in Nepal also. In order to prevent it from growing we have thought of starting some sort of competition under the leadership of proletariat in the villages too. If we could implement this, we would be able to save our activists from degeneration. When we will occupy power in the Centre, then the danger of us and our Central committee getting degenerated will be lesser. That's why we want to develop a system. It will be a new experiment under the leadership of the proletariate. We feel that only this way we can save ourselves from getting degenerated and will prevent the revolution turning into counterrevolution.

答：我是这样认为的。我们必须建立一种制度。通过革命我们可以做到并且组织竞争。我们不是说倒向资产阶级民主，这与那毫无关系。一些人还不理解。我们反复说我们会通过革命达到那个目标。在我们把根据地推向全国的时候，我们就已经注意到问题了。当你拥有了足够的实力，你们党的形象开始建立起来，她开始赢得人民的尊敬，党的领导人变得很重要时，那么恶化的危险也出现了。我们已经看到了这些。在俄国和中国发生过的它们初期的形式，也在尼泊尔出现了。为了阻止消极因素的发展，我们也想到了在一些农村开始某种无产阶级领导下的竞争。如果我们能够实现这些，我们就能够防止蜕变。当我们取得中央政权时，我们和我们的中央委员会退化变质的危险就会大大减少。这就是我们想要发展一种制度的原因。它将是在无产阶级领导下的新实验。我们认为只有这样我们才能拯救我们自己而不变质，防止革命变成反革命。

Q. After coming to power will your party operate freely or will it still remain underground?

问：在你们党取得政权以后，你们的活动是自由的呢，还是仍然保持地下状态？

A. If we come to power 'fully' then the party will be functioning openly but if we come to power partially, then one part of the party will remain underground. The current phase is transitional in nature. Therefore we have to wait and see which direction the politics takes. During the transitional phase we will have to keep a part of the party leadership underground in order to maintain the revolutionary character of the party and to remain connected to the people's movement during the transitional phase. That's why I can not give clear reply to this question.

答：如果我们全面夺取政权，那么党会公开活动，但是如果我们只是部分取得政权，那么党的一部分仍会保持地下状态。当前时期实际上是过渡时期。因此，我们必须等待，看政治形势朝哪个方向发展。在过渡时期，我们必须使一部分党的领导处于地下状态以便保持党的革命性，并且在过渡时期保持与人民运动的联系。所以，我不能明确回答这个问题。

Q. In your documents you have talked about the perpetual or continuous revolution. In this situation it is necessary to maintain the entire party structure including the PLA. Will international powers give consent to it?

问：在您的著作中，您谈到持久的或继续的革命。在这样的形势下，有必要保持整个党的组成，包括人民解放军。国际势力会同意吗？

You must realise that these international powers even did not recognise our movement and what we have achieved till today but still we are here. Even these international powers are divided, there exist all sorts of contradictions among them and we have been able to reach here by properly handling these contradictions. That's why we feel that we will be able to take forward the revolutionary forces even after coming to power. In this context I will like to make a clarification. Ten months back our Central Committee has passed a resolution in which it has been said that if we occupy the seat of power then the top rung of the leadership will keep itself away from the day-to-day administrative affairs. This is a very serious question. Only by solving them properly we can save the party from degeneration and will be able to continue our programme of perpetual revolution. This is an important strategic question. If our top leadership, even after coming to power, keeps itself connected to the masses and lets the second rank of leadership look after the administrative work then we can succeed in our goal to a great extent. The top leadership will formulate a policy and handover it to the second generation of leadership which will be made responsible to run the government. We mean to say that only people from the second rank of leadership will be eligible for the post of President and Prime Minister and the top rank of leadership will remain engaged with the people's movements. This way we will also be able to keep an eye, with the help of the people, on the working of the second rank of leadership. If the person occupying the seat of power commits some mistake then we will organise the people against him. Through this process we would be able to educate our successor and at the same time people will manage to have an eye on the functioning of those who are in power. Mao could not do this in China. But we must do this and I am sure we will be able to do it. That's why we have passed a resolution to this effect. It will be a stupendous task and I am sure that if we could live for 10 more years then we will show the results. After 10 years our places will be taken up by those second rank leadership who are in the government and, in turn, they will train the third generation leadership. This way the danger of counter-revolution can be reduced to a great extent. This is also a method, rather it is an ideology. There is a rule pertaining to the development of the society - the new replacing the old. This rule is scientific in nature. We have seen that even when the leaders attain the age of 80 years, even 90 years and become absent minded but still they remain clung to the top rung of the leadership. Mao did it, Stalin also did the same. This is not a good practice, it is unscientific. This had been one of the factors responsible for creating troubles. That's why we passed this type of resolution.

答：你只是看到了国际势力，而没看到我们的运动以及到目前为止我们取得的成果，而且，我们仍在这里。即使这些国际势力分裂了，在他们中间存在着各种矛盾，我们也能通过正确处理这些矛盾来到这里。这就是我们认为我们即使在取得政权之后我们仍能够把革命力量推向前进的原因。关于这一点，我想澄清一下。10个月前，我们党中央委员会通过了一项决议，决议指出如果我们取得政权，那么最高领导层将不参与管理国家的事务。这是一个非常重要的问题。只有正确地解决了这一问题，我们才能拯救党免于变质，并且可以继续我们永久革命的计划。这是一个重要的战略问题。如果我们的高级领导人，在取得政权之后，继续使自己保持同群众的联系，而让第二代领导人进行管理工作，那么我们就取得了重大胜利。高级领导人将制定政策并交给负责管理政府的第二代领导人。我们的意思是说，只有来自第二代领导的人才有资格担任主席和总理，而高级领导人将仍然从事人民运动。这个办法使我们在人民的帮助下，能够监督第二代领导人的工作。如果执政者犯了错误，我们会组织人民反对他。通过这个办法，我们可以教育我们的接班人，同时人民可以对当权者实行监督。毛在中国没能这样做。但是我们必须这样做，而且我们确信能够做到。这就是我们通过一项这方面决议的原因。这将是一个巨大的任务，我们确信如果我们可以多活10年，那么我们会取得成果的。10年后，我们的从事监督的位置将由政府中的第二代领导人取代，同样，他们将培养第三代领导人。这样出现反革命的危险会最大程度的降低。这是个办法，也是一种理论。社会发展有其本身的规律，即新的取代旧的。这个法则在本质上是科学的。我们曾看到过当领导人活到80岁，甚至90岁变得思想迟钝时，他们仍保持着最高权力。毛是这样，斯大林也是这样。这不是个好惯例，它不科学。这成为产生麻烦的因素之一。因此我们通过了这类问题的决议。

Q. How do you conceive the future of Nepal?

您对尼泊尔的未来是怎样构想的？

A.    If you are asking this from the revolutionary point of view then we look at Nepal as the base of the world revolution. From economic point of view, within 10 years we can change the face of the country. Nepal has got immense resources, mighty manpower and strong determination of its people. With the help of these we can give effect to all-sided development of Nepal. Our planning is to create a highway in hilly region linking east to the west. This highway will further be linked to various areas with the help of the link roads. Nepal has electricity in good amount which can be utilised for running many small-scale projects. Nodoubt, we also want to award some major projects to international agencies. This way we will be able to create a huge infrastructure providing employment opportunities to the people. Nepal is most beautiful country of the world and has got immense possibilities in the field of tourism. If we could implement our plans then we could be able to make Nepal like Switzerland within 10 years.

答：如果你是从革命的观点问这个问题，那么我们把尼泊尔看成是世界革命的基地。从经济角度讲，我们会在10年内改变国家的面貌。尼泊尔拥有丰富的资源，巨大的人力和人民的坚定决心。有这样的帮助，我们能够取得尼泊尔全面的发展。我们计划在山区建设连通东西部的公路。这一公路可以在原有公路的基础，进一步连接全国各地区。尼泊尔有丰富的电力可以用来建设许多小型工程。不容置疑，我们也想把一些主要工程交给国际机构。这样我们可以建设巨大的基础设施，并给人民提供就业机会。尼泊尔是世界上最漂亮的国家，在旅游业领域拥有巨大潜力。如果我们能够实现我们的计划，那我们就可以在10年内使尼泊尔变得象瑞士那样。

Q. Is there any plan to call back millions of Nepalese gone abroad in search of livelihood?

问：有没有让数百万在国外谋生的尼泊尔人回国的计划？

A.    If a genuine people's government is formed, a government which has a vision and has a determination to work according to that vision, then we will certainly call back all Nepalese living abroad and they will be eager to come back.

如果一场真正的人民运动被发动，新成立的政府有这种眼光，并且有决心去这样做，那么我们一定会号召所有国外的尼泊尔人回国，而且他们也渴望回来。

Q. If the ruling class of India obstructs this, how will you face it?

问：如果印度统治阶级阻止呢？你们如何应对？

A.    Its true that in the context of Nepal, the history of Indian ruling class has not been very good. But India's masses are gradually understanding the importance of Nepalese revolution and are coming forward in its support. We would like to see this process getting more concretised. I am convinced that with the support of Indian masses we would be able to remove all obstacles put up by the Indian ruling class.

答：是的，在尼泊尔问题上，印度统治阶级的历史很坏。但是印度群众逐渐理解尼泊尔革命的重要性并开始给予支持。我们希望这个过程更加具体。我们相信在印度人民群众的支持下，我们能够消除印度统治阶级制造的一切障碍。

Q. What will be the status of Gyanendra in the face of the changes being brought about in Nepalese politics?

问：贾南德拉会在尼泊尔政治的改变中处于什么地位？

A.    He will have to quit. If he voluntarily wants to quit Monarchy then he will be allowed to stay in the country like an ordinary citizen. If he does not do so then he will have to leave the country. We don't see any future for him because the average Nepali hates him a lot.

他将不得不下台。如果他能自动放弃君主制，那么他可以作为一个普通公民留在国内。如果他不愿那样做，那将不得不出国。我们不愿看到他的任何未来，因为尼泊尔民众非常恨他。

Posted under PERSPECTIVE_ANALYSIS, Constituent Assembly on Saturday 19 August 2006 at 1:11 am

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