普拉昌达同志谈尼泊尔当前形势（一）

普拉昌达同志谈尼泊尔当前形势（一）

（译者注：这是普拉昌达同志最近在加德满都接受两名新闻记者的联合采访文稿。关于尼泊尔革命，译者想谈谈个人的一点看法，尼泊尔革命的成败最终主要取决于尼泊尔革命同志和尼泊尔人民。别国的革命同志可以提些有益的建议，但是不要把自己的意志强加于尼泊尔共产党（毛主义），如果建议变成了干涉，那就会帮倒忙。同志们应该按照伟大领袖金日成同志的主体思想要求，让尼泊尔共产党（毛主义）和尼泊尔人民自己独立自主地解决尼泊尔革命的问题。无论将来尼泊尔革命成功或失败，都会为尼泊尔共产主义运动和21世纪国际共产主义运动增添宝贵的经验和教训） 

问：People supported the 12-point understanding of November 2005,between the Maoists and the Seven Party Alliance (SPA), and came on to the streets demanding the abolition of monarchy. It is felt that the agreement of April 25 is incomplete. However, you have come overground and talks are now on. How are things proceeding?

问：人民支持2005年11月毛主义者和七党联盟签定的12点协议，并且走上街头要求废除君主制。4月25日协议看起来不够完整。不过，您已经公开露面并接受采访。您认为形势会如何发展呢？

答：At the time we forged the understanding with the SPA in November 2005,we had foreseen the sequence of events. That is why we strongly opposed the demand for the restoration of Parliament as a slogan in the movement. We tried to convince the SPA to move directly towards an interim government and elections for the Constitutional Assembly (CA). The Nepali Congress, specifically Girija Prasad Koirala, disagreed. We already guessed at that time that this slogan of reinstatement of the House of Representatives (HoR) might leave a loophole for the king to take advantage. And this reinstated HoR may be the tool for the leaders of the political parties to reach an agreement with the king. We suspected then that such possibilities would dilute the achievements of the movement. Because of our suspicions of these dangers and our observations, we did not accept the slogans of the SPA when we agreed to enter into an understanding. Our party was well aware that the politics in Nepal was like a frozen pond that needed to be destroyed in order to open the way for a new political environment.If it develops accordingly, then further understanding may develop for the election of the CA and the institutionalisation of Loktantrik Ganatantra (democratic republic). If things don’t happen according to our thinking, then this understanding will create a greater people’s movement. If one or another party betrays the movement, they would be left exposed to the masses politically, paving the way for the third phase of the movement to come into play. So, that was our firm belief. Observing and analysing this situation, we reached the understanding. Now, we are at the crossroads.

答：2005年11月，在我们同七党联盟签定协议时，我们就预见到事情的发展状况

。因此我们强烈反对把恢复议会作为人民运动的口号。我们努力说服七党联盟直接成立临时政府和进行制宪会议选举。但是，尼泊尔大会党，尤其是科依拉那不同意。我们当时已经估计到恢复议会的口号会被国王利用。这个被恢复的议会会成为政党领导人同国王合作的工具。我们当时估计那样可能会丧失人民运动的成果。由于我们认识到这种危险，在我们签定协议时，我们没有接受七党联盟的口号。我们党清楚地认识到尼泊尔政治就象一个冰冻的池塘，它应该被凿开以便为创造新的政治环境开辟道路。如果尼泊尔政治正常发展，那么我们就会在制宪会议选举和民主共和国方面进一步达成共识。否则，就会造成一场更大规模的人民运动。如果政党们背叛人民运动，那他们就会在政治上被人民识破，并为人民运动的第三阶段铺平道路。我们坚信这一点。通过对当前形势的观察和分析，我们得出了这个结论。现在，我们正处于十字路口。

问：On the eight-point agreement of May 16, 2006 between the Maoists and the SPA, some newspapers commented on this as the formation of a new front, but it was opposed by the leaders of the political parties from the very next day itself.The present situation appears pretty much the same as on May 16. What are the contradictions and hurdles that created such circumstances?

问：关于2006年6月16日（译者纠正）毛主义者和七党联盟的8点协议，当时一些报纸认为那是形势进步到一个新的高度，但是，第二天这种评论就被各政党领导人否定了。当前形势与6月16日时非常相似，那么，是什么矛盾和困难造成今天这样的形势呢？

答：Of course, the eight-point agreement of Baluwatar was a very important

understanding. The Baluwatar Agreement untied the knot of Nepali politics which was an obstacle since the 1950s. For the first time, the eight point

agreement had created a political arrangement for realising the right of the people in its true sense. It could be said that Parliament was the venue for foreign powers to play their role. The next place is the palace. When the political role of the palace and Parliament remains constant, then people never get their rights. We fought every time, but power remained in the same place. The Baluwatar Agreement clearly demonstrated the power beyond Parliament. It indicated the decisiveness of the State power in the hands of revolutionary people. The seven parties and we signed this agreement.

We understood it as a great event in the process of historical resolution.

When this agreement was made public, and when I appealed to the people through the press conference that we are moving towards a new experiment, then influential power centres, especially the United States, suddenly felt great pain. The very next day I heard that the US has been making provocative statements, saying that the entire country had followed the Maoists’ agenda. Second, Delhi went cold with fear. That was because during the Delhi visit of Koirala he had reached an understanding for not dissolving Parliament. Ten days later, we reached an agreement on the dissolution of Parliament. When Delhi asked them, “What did you do?” then the leaders of the parties, who are actually more dependent on foreigners, started crying the next morning. This is the real cause. Their mouths have opened here, but the reality is that only after Delhi and Washington started speaking the real problem commenced.

答：当然，巴鲁华特的8点协议是非常重要的协议。巴鲁华特协议解开了自1950年代以来成为尼泊尔政治难题的绳结。8点协议第一次为真正实现人民的权利创造了一种政治环境。应该说议会是外国势力发挥作用的场所。另一个场所是王宫。如果宫廷和议会的政治作用不变，人民就永远不能得到他们的权利。我们斗争多次，但是权力仍然留在原地。巴鲁华特协议明确表明权力超出议会，指出国家权力属于革命人民。七党和我们签定了这个协议。我们把它称之为一项重大的历史性决议。当协议被公之于众以及我们在新闻发布会上向人民表明，我们正朝着一个新的阶段前进时，国外势力，特别是美国突然感到非常痛苦。就在第二天，我听到美国发表了一篇煽动性的声明，说整个国家已经纳入了毛主义者的日程表。另外，德里因恐惧而态度冷淡。那是因为科依拉那在德里访问期间，他们就不解散议会曾取得过共识。10天后，我们在解散议会问题上达成协议。当德里问他们，“你们做了些什么？”于是，那些实际上更加依赖外国人的政党领导人开始在第二天早晨大嚷大叫。这就是真正的原因。在这，他们早就唠叨，其实当德里和华盛顿开始发令时，问题就出来了。

问：There are differences between your party and the SPA. How will your party and SPA protect the past understandings? How are you proceeding?

问：在你们党和七党联盟之间存在着分歧。那你们党和七党联盟将如何维护过去的协议？你们如何解决？

答：When dissenting voices began to emerge against the agreement, a distorted agenda emerged from new quarters. We reflected that this might have happened because of the lack of homework and the hurriedness of the process. We then came back and talked intensively to the parties. We talked informally with the CPN (UML) and the NC in the Godavari resort and similarly with other parties. We tried to streamline all procedures which had gone astray. We talked with seven-eight senior leaders of the NC and UML leadership, where talks on every issue went smoothly. To avoid differences, we agreed to return the property of concerned persons by accepting a mechanism.But the major issue of politics was never resolved. While all this was going on, the Congress parliamentary party passed the resolution against the eight-point agreement. We have observed that the problem will not be resolved by talking, because the key to the problem lies somewhere else. As we said earlier at the time of Sher Bahadur Deuba, that “nothing will be resolved by talking to the servant, we need to talk to the real master”. Things are looking similar even today. We think the parties and leaders are like servants, while the masters are living abroad. That is why I announced on July 28, 2006

答：当反对协议的不同声音出现时，就会出现歪曲的议程。我们认为这是由于缺乏准备和处理仓促。那么我们就回来同各政党进行热烈的交谈。我们同尼泊尔共产党（联合马列）以及尼泊尔大会党在Godavari地区进行过非正式的交谈，和其他政党也有类似的对话。我们努力纠正所有偏离的事项。我们和七、八个尼泊尔大会党以及尼共（联合马列）的高级领导人交谈，关于各类问题的交谈都很顺利。为了避免分歧，我们同意通过一定手续退还一些人的财产。但是，主要政治问题从来也没有解决。当所有这些事正在处理时，大会党通过了一项反对8点协议的决议。我们已认识到通过谈话不能解决问题，因为问题的关键在另外一些地方。就象我们早些时候同德乌帕讲的那样，“同仆人谈话什么也解决不了，我们需要同真正的主人谈话”。事情即使在今天也一样。我们认为各政党极其领导人就象仆人，而主人在国外。因此，我在2006年7月28日发布了公告。

问：You earlier talked about an October revolution, now you are appealing to the people to prepare for a peaceful movement. What message will go after this contradictory appeal?

问：您曾谈到过一场十月革命，现在您却在呼吁人民准备一场和平运动。这样矛盾的呼吁会传达怎样的信息呢？

答：What did the two of you understand from our appeal? In our understanding, when people ask us that Maoists are at the negotiation table while simultaneously preparing for a peaceful uprising, we don’t have an appropriate answer. The fact is that in its essence, it is both. We came here thinking that we will succeed in the agenda of creating a democratic republic through peaceful means and should try for this. It is not as though we came to the negotiating table with an uprising as the prime agenda. We are in the committee for the Interim Constitution and the talks committee. Our headquarters is also involved here in the political interactions for over a month-and-ahalf. On the basis of ten years of people’s war (PW), it is possible to go into peaceful transformation. The PW influenced the 12-point understanding and we can proceed to the October revolution in a peaceful way. If the parties had waited for two more days and not stalled the movement by accepting the April 24- 25, (11 Baisakh) announcement, the October revolution might have happened right then. Everyone knows that accepting the 11 Baisakh announcement was the result of a clandestine agreement between the SPA, the king and India. If the acceptance was deferred by two days, millions of people were advancing towards the Narayanhiti Palace. That momentum was there. Everyone knows that. If that process was not thwarted, the October revolution might have been heralded. It is possible to advance that process even through the people’s referendum and CA elections. We are focusing our attention on political transformation through peaceful means. However, in the end I have to say that if this government engages in a conspiracy against the people’s aspirations and if it plots with the high command of the old army, if they get intimidated by its generals, and if they want to advance and survive by being the brokers of the generals, then the Nepali people will revolt. We will be in favour of such a revolt.

答：你们两位从我们的呼吁中理解到什么呢？我们认为，当人民要求我们和谈而同时又准备一场和平起义时，我们不能给予恰当的答复。事实上，两者在本质上是一致的。我们到这来，认为我们会成功地通过和平方式建立民主共和国并应该为此而努力。那并不是指我们来到谈判桌前，却带着起义的谈判方案。我们加入了临时宪法委员会以及和谈委员会。我们的指挥部也来到这里从事了一个半月的政治对话。在10年人民战争的前提下，进行和平转变的可能性是存在的。人民战争促成了12点协议，并且我们能够以和平方式进行十月革命。如果各政党再多等两天，而不是接受4月24日，25日的宣言，结束了人民运动，那么十月革命当时就发生了。所有人都知道接受宣言是七党联盟，国王和印度之间达成秘密协议的结果。如果接受协议再推迟两天，那么数百万人民就会向Narayanhit王宫进军。当时那种动力是有的。每个人都知道。如果运动不结束，那么十月革命就会宣布。通过全民公决和制宪会议选举来实现这一进程也是可能的。我们正在集中精力通过和平方式实现政治转变。然而，最后我不得不说如果这个政府从事反对人民的阴谋活动，与旧军队司令部密谋，如果他们被将军们胁迫，想作为将军们的掮客来生存和发展，那么尼泊尔人民就会起义。我们会支持这样的起义。

问：You accuse the seven parties, their government and the outside powers

of obstructing political transformation. They say that you and the arms

of the Maoists are the obstruction. Don’t you think you have to assure

people and other parties by agreeing to the management of your arms?

问：您谴责七党和他们的政府以及外部势力阻碍政治转变。他们却说你们和毛主义者的武装是障碍。难道您不认为你们只有同意管理你们的武装，才能取得人民和政党们信赖吗？

答：At this moment this is being raised as the most important question. How

Nepali politics will advance, depends on this question. We do not want to put any obstacles in the path of weapons’ management. We have said, both in the 12-point understanding and the eight-point agreement, that both the armies and their arms have to be immobilised under the monitoring and cooperation of the UN. Then, keeping the mandate and spirit of the outcome of the CA

elections, we have to reorganise the armies to make one national army. We are committed to this. However, now the seven parties have moved back a little bit from this understanding, and are raising the issue of our arms as the only obstacle to the process of political transformation. Foreign powers, such as the US and its envoy James Moriarty, are presenting it as though our arms are the only problem. The central issue of whether Nepali people have reached the point of real democracy or not rests here. From 1950 to now, which was the army that on each and every occasion suppressed the people’s movement? And which was the army that played a crucial role in breaking Gyanendra’s authoritarianism and bringing the movement to this stage? If the People’s Army was not a people’s army, then the 12-point understanding would not have been possible. Showing the February municipal elections to be a sham to the world was also the work of the People’s Army. Later, the People’s Army played a critical role in ensuring the mass general strike. The People’s Army is responsible for the reinstatement of the present HoR. Or is it that the Royal Army reinstated the HoR? Despite this fact, despite our remaining flexible, despite our saying that make arrangements for the two armies, and even after the agreement reached in Baluwatar, the parties are still going back. If we decommission and disarm, and the Royal Army remains in the same position, then what will happen? What is our thinking? That only if the People’s Army exists, will the people’s movement remain secure and protected? The Royal Army, even if it tries, cannot quell the nationwide presence and stronghold of the People’s Liberation Army, with its seven divisions.

答：此时，这是最重要的问题。尼泊尔政治能够取得多大进步，取决于这个问题的解决。我们不想在武器管理的道路上设置任何障碍。我们已经在12点协议和8点协议中说过，双方的军队和武器必须由联合国监督和管理。然后，我们根据制宪会议选举结果的要求和精神，重新把双方的军队改编成一支国家军队。我们同意这样做。然而，现在七党违背了协议，说我方武装是政治转变进程中的唯一障碍。外部势力，如美国和他的特使詹姆斯·莫里艾地提出似乎我方的武装是唯一的问题。关键问题是尼泊尔人民是否已经认识到真正的民主，而不是停滞在这一点上。从1950年到现在，是哪一支军队一贯地镇压人民运动？又是哪一支军队在击败贾南德拉的独裁统治方面发挥了决定性的作用，并把运动发展到今天这样的水平？如果人民军队不是人民军队，那么12点协议就不可能达成。向全世界揭露2月市政选举这一骗局的也是人民军队。之后，人民军队又在确保人民群众大罢工方面发挥了重要作用。人民军队使当前的议会被恢复，难道议会是尼泊尔王军恢复的吗？不顾事实，不顾我们保持的灵活性，不顾我们提出的对双方军队的管理，并且即使在巴鲁华特协定达成之后，政党们仍然在倒退。如果我们退役或被解除武装，而尼泊尔王军仍旧存在，那会带来什么后果呢？我们在想什么呢？那就是只要人民军队存在，人民运动就有安全保障。尼泊尔王军即使倾其全力，也无法消除存在于全国各地的人民解放军要塞。

问：The fear of the parties is that how will the competition in elections between an arms-bearing party and unarmed parties be equal and fair?

问：政党们担心的是，拥有武装的政党怎么可以同没有武装的政党进行平等和公平选举竞争呢？

答：We are saying that our weapons will be under observation of the UN.

After that, we will also not have weapons, is it not? It is not like we will seek votes bearing weapons; we will go like the other parties go. Our PLA will be in the barracks and camps under observation of the UN.

答：我们一直在强调我们的武器会由联合国来监管。之后，我们也是没有武装的政党，不是吗？事情并不是我们拿着武器获取选票，我们会象其他政党那样行事。我们的人民解放军会在联合国的监督下待在军营里。

问：There are allegations against you of violating the 25-point code during

ceasefire. There are allegations of not returning houses and property that your party seized, of beating, abduction and continuing the collection of donation.

问：有人声称你们违反了25点停火协议。而且声称你们没有退还没收的房屋和财产，并继续实行强迫募捐。

答：Whatever the parties are alleging on this is only pretence. If journalists and human rights activists raise this, it is might be valid. There have been some mistakes on our part, but, equally, we are working to correct these. Why I say that the parties, claims are a deception is because the parties cannot even agree to a common mechanism to solve such issues. If they had agreed to immediately move towards an interim Constitution and interim government, then automatically the people’s courts and people’s government would have been dissolved. After that if any incident took place, we would have investigated and conducted disciplinary proceedings. Whatever the parties are saying, it’s pretence. It appears that they are merely following the orders of Washington.

答：政党们的这些断言是虚构的。如果记者或人权活动家提出来，那可能是真的。我们这边也犯了些错误，但是，我们正在改正。为什么我说政党的断言是谎言呢，因为他们从来不同意由一个共同的机构来处理这些问题。如果他们同意立刻颁布临时宪法和成立临时政府，那么我们的人民法庭和人民政府就会自动解散。那之后如果发生什么事件，我们会调查并按规定处理。政党们所说的是谎言，这是他们听从华盛顿指示的表现。 

（翻译：红石）

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