普拉昌达同志谈尼泊尔当前形势（二）

普拉昌达同志谈尼泊尔当前形势（二）

问：In Baluwatar, you said that within 15 days there will be an Interim

Constitution. Till today, it has not happened. Why?

问：在巴鲁华特，您曾说过，在15天内临时宪法就可以草拟出来。可是到现在，它还没出来，这是为什么？

答：The Interim Constitution Drafting Committee is working very seriously.

However, the delay is because of the political parties. It is likely that the

Interim Constitution will be ready in one week. The dominant classes of

the old regime and even some Congress and UML Bamun-Chhetri leaders are reluctant to allow the right to self-determination with autonomous ethnic federations. This is creating bottlenecks in the process of the CA elections, isn’t it? We are in the first decade of the 21st century. The world has moved far ahead. People’s consciousness, awareness and thoughts are high. Such kind of leaders have to understand these realities. In this changing context, how can we resolve ongoing contradictions and conflicts should be the focus of our attention. The slogans that we raised are not going to bring about social unrest, but they will help to resolve social contradictions for hundreds of years in the future. I request all concerned to view, from this perspective, our programmes which will provide a political climate that will not compel people to feel cheated. No one will be in

a situation where they might have to pick up arms.For 237 years, Nepal’s State was centralised and feudal. We cannot return to that stage. Now the circumstances have changed. Now people and ethnic groups have awareness about State oppression. There is an advancement of consciousness. The State should realise this consciousness. After that, a new nation-state can be formed. If each and every person feels that they are the owners of the country, then we all will feel secure and safe. This consciousness has to be understood.

答：临时宪法起草委员会的工作是非常认真的。但是，拖延是由于政党们引起的。临时宪法完全可以在一个星期内准备好。旧政权的统治阶级，甚至一些大会党以及尼共（联合马列）的领导人不愿意把自治权力交给民族自治区。这就在制宪会议选举的进程中设置了障碍，不是吗？我们处于21世纪的第一个10年中。世界已经向前大大发展了。人民的觉悟，意识和思想提高了。这些领导人必须认识到这些现实。在这样变化的形势下，如何处理当前的矛盾和冲突成为我们关注的焦点。我们提出的口号不是要使社会动荡，而是要帮助解决数百年来存在的社会矛盾。我想让所有的关注者从这样的观点认识到，我们的计划是为了提供一种政治环境，而不是欺骗人民。谁也不愿意生活在一个迫使他不得不拿起枪杆子战斗的环境中。237年来，尼泊尔国家一直是中央集权和封建制的。我们不能倒退到那个时期。现在形势已经不同了。现在人民和少数民族已经意识到国家压迫。这是认识上的进步。国家应该实现这种要求。之后，应该建立一个新的民族国家。如果所有人都认识到这一点，他们就会成为国家的主人，那么我们所有人就会感到安全和有保障。这种思想应该被理解。

问：On this issue, there have been questions raised by the Marxists. They

say that such issues of identity are not Marxist questions. They say that to gain strength, Maoists are raising identity issues instead of focusing on class issues.

关于这个问题，马克思主义者已经提出来过。他们说类似这样的问题不属于马克思主义范畴。他们强调说，毛主义者提出类似的问题，忽视了阶级问题。

答：If they say that, then we feel that they have not understood Marxism.

Ethnic struggle is also a form of class struggle. Ethnic struggle is not different

from class struggle. Marx himself, then, had interpreted in the Irish question, that identity was a part of the class question. Lenin had replaced the slogan of ‘Workers of the World Unite’ with ‘Workers and Oppressed People of the World

Unite’ during the Third International. These Red sloganeers have not understood Marxism. Lenin has used the formulation of self determination within a federal structure. Those who accuse Maoists of having abandoned Marxism have instead acquired stakes in the existing feudal structure of Nepal. If they genuinely want to end class exploitation,then why do they fear giving powers to Madheshis, Newar, Bheri-Karnali, Seti-Mahakali, Gurung, Magar, Tharu, Rai, Limbu and others? Even though the right to divorce is there, it does not mean that a husband will always leave his wife and a wife will abandon her husband. Only after giving everyone rights will national unity be strengthened.

答：如果他们那样说，那么我们认为他们没有理解马克思主义。民族斗争也是阶级斗争的一种形式。民族斗争与阶级斗争是一致的。当年马克思本人就阐明了爱尔兰民族问题，那个问题的性质就是阶级问题。列宁在第三国际期间，把“全世界无产者联合起来”的口号换成了“全世界无产者和被压迫民族联合起来”的口号。这些所谓的马克思主义者并不理解马克思主义。列宁在一个联邦体制内采用了民族自决的形式。那些指责毛主义者放弃了马克思主义的人，自己却把尼泊尔封建制度当做背靠的大树。如果他们真想消灭阶级剥削，那么为什么害怕把权力交给Madheshis, Newar, Bheri-Karnali, Seti-Mahakali, Gurung, Magar, Tharu, Rai, Limbu以及其他民族地区呢？尽管允许离婚，但并不意味着丈夫总是离开妻子和妻子抛弃她的丈夫。只有给与所有人权力，那么国家统一才会加强。

问：The dream of a new Nepal that you talked about after the 2 Asarh (June

16) agreement at Baluwatar evoked a tremendous response among the people and raised their aspirations. But looking at the structure of the State today, without a full transformation, what possibility do you see ahead if you were to be the prime minister? In the circumstances, is not the dream too idealistic?

问：您在巴鲁华特协议（6月16日）签定后谈到一个新尼泊尔的理想，这引起了人民的热烈反响和渴望。但是，面对当前的国家体制，没有发生根本的转变，如果您成为总理，您可能会怎样做？在这样的形势下，那个理想不是空想吗？

答：It is not idealistic. We have developed the Marxism-Leninism-Maoism of the

old communist movement into a new manifesto of the 21st century because the old formulations will not work. Knowing that the old methods will not work, ten months back our central committee discussed and agreed on this matter. We did not make all this public. This document of the central committee is the new manifesto of the communist party of the 21st century. We have to evolve a new understanding of contemporary imperialism and revolution. In the prevailing context, strategy and tactics have to be new and relevant. The manner in which the party functions must also be according to a new strategy. In today’s age of globalisation and post-modernism, we have to move decisively in a new form. The 12-point understanding consciously reflects our 21st century interpretation of communist ideology. When we entered into the Baluwatar agreement, I told the world that we feel confident that we would be able to come forward with new ideas. This is not idealism. This is from our experience of the movement. These ideas came from the discussions among the tens of millions of people. Buddha was born in Lumbini but his ideas permeated the world. Likewise during our ten years of people’s war we were not merely confined to Mechchi-Mahakali or Sindhuli and Rolpa-Rukum. We lived in various states of India. We stayed from six months to one year each in Mumbai, Kolkota, Himachal, Delhi, Assam, and many other places. Our consciousness is the result of interactions and influences in a living relationship with humanity in the 21st century. This is why we are realists.

它是现实的。因为旧的方式不能解决问题，所以我们把旧共产主义运动的马列毛主义发展成了21世纪的新的宣言。10个月前，当认识到旧办法没用了时，我们中央委员会讨论并通过了这一决议。我们没有把它全面公开。这个中央委员会的文件是21世纪共产党的新宣言。我们必须发展当代帝国主义和革命的新理论。在主要问题上，战略和战术必须是全新的。党发挥作用的方式也应该根据新的战略。在今天全球化和后现代主义的时代，我们必须以新的形式迈出决定性的步伐。12点协议反映出我们对21世纪共产主义理论的解释。当我们签定巴鲁华特协定时，我告诉世界我们有信心以新的观点前进。这不是唯心的。这是来自于我们运动的经验。这些观点来自数千万人民的讨论。佛祖诞生于蓝毗尼，但他的思想却传遍了全世界。同样，在10年人民战争期间，我们并不局限于 Mechchi-Mahakali 或 Sindhuli 以及罗尔帕-鲁孔地区活动。我们生活在印度的各个邦。我们在孟买，Kolkota, Himachal, 德里，Assam和许多其他地方分别呆上半年到一年的时间。我们的思想是21世纪人类生产关系作用和影响下产生的。因此我们是现实主义者。

问：Let’s extend our discussion to the statement of the CPI (Maoist) (in

India) spokesperson Comrade Azad, who in a recent interview cautioned

about betrayal when collaborating with the State.

让我们谈谈印度共产党（毛主义）发言人阿乍得同志的声明，他在最近的访谈中提到在与政府合作时可能背叛的问题。

答：To begin with, we are not going to enter this present State structure.

Many people have represented us as being eager to become ministers.

They have not understood our thought and our feelings or we have

not been able to explain ourselves to them. We will not become ministers,

in the existing bureaucratic structure. We have asked for a democratic federal republic in the Interim Constitution itself. Even so there can be agreement with the SPA. After arriving at an understanding with them we can go into the interim government. Without change we won’t go there. When we believe that change has taken place then only we will go. Our people will run the ministries that we head. It is only on this condition that we will join the government. If we go without this condition then we will become just like the UML and NC.

We will not enter this State structure without this change. The 12- point

understanding and 8-point agreement have addressed issues of State

restructuring. If the SPA agrees then there is no problem. You have asked a very important question about Comrade Azad’s comments. See, when there is a revolution in the world in one instant, that revolution does not replicate itself in another time and another context. The Russian revolution took place in a very different manner to the Paris Commune. The Russian revolution took place in a different manner, the Chinese revolution took place in a very different way. The Cuban revolution did not take place in the same manner as the Chinese revolution. Stalin did not recognise the Chinese revolution as a proletariat revolution. He always held that until 1951, the Chinese revolution was a bourgeois revolution. When they really discussed about the Chinese revolution,

then he recognised it as a Communist revolution. The Russian revolution

faced attacks from all sides after its completion. Lenin proposed a treaty

with Germany in order to keep alive the revolution. Even within their central

committee, there was the accusation that Lenin had betrayed the revolution.

But the central committee rejected this decisively. The central committee needed three meetings to resolve the issue. What we are doing in Nepal is recognising the balance of power in the country, and taking the people for a new kind of revolution. Those who are viewing us from the perspective of the old forms of revolution will say that we have already Spoilt it all. However, those who view us in terms of transformation and flow of revolution will find us to be the most dynamic of communists. We made the Unity Centre (Ekta Kendra) in 2048 BS (1991). We had labelled the 1990 movement as a betrayal. But people did not accept this. When people did not believe this, then we too entered Parliament. At that time, many revolutionaries like Comrade Azad said that we were doomed. In the next three years, the RIM (Revolutionary International Movement) had declared us as Rightists and expelled us from the RIM. They had even brought out a voluminous publication on this matter. For boycotting elections, they also declared that only Mohan Bikram was a revolutionary. When we began the people’s war, all the revisionists of the world declared us foolish. They said that we would be turned into dust in ten months. But even after ten years we are here. During the first peace talks, people like Comrade Azad expected us to be finished. However, do we look at revolution in scientific terms, or do we apply the formulae of the 20th century to it is the primary question? We have, on one side, parties like the UML, who in its ‘progress’ has gone for class co-existence. Whatever we are attempting in Nepal is both risky and challenging. But without facing challenges and risks, which revolution in the world has taken place? When we address these challenges, it will appear that sometimes we are going to the Left and sometimes to the Right. In the course of revolution, if one goes Left, then they are Leftists. If they swerve to the Right, then they will be Rightists. We are walking on both our legs. Sometimes the left foot leads, sometimes the right foot is forward. It is only by walking on both our legs that we accomplished the ten years of struggle. When we extend our right foot, then some people accuse us of being Rightists. When we put forward our left foot, they call us Leftists. It is only when we walk using both our feet, that it is scientific.

首先，我们不会参加当前的政府。许多人认为我们想当部长。他们不了解我们的想法和我们的感情，或者我们没有向他们解释。我们不会当前官僚国家机构的部长。

我们要求根据临时宪法成立民主联邦共和国。尽管，那应该同七党联盟达成协议。在他们达成协议后，我们可以加入临时政府。否则，我们不会加入。只有当我们认为情况改变了，我们才会加入。我们领导的人民将成为部长。只有在这个条件下，我们才会参加政府。如果没有这个条件就加入，那我们就同尼共（联合马列）以及尼泊尔大会党没有区别了。没有这个变化我们不会进入国家机构。12点协议和8点协议已经阐明了国家机构的问题。如果七党联盟同意，那就没问题了。你提到一个非常重要的问题，即阿扎德同志的意见。要知道，当世界上发生一场革命时，那么这场革命不会是另一场革命的复制。俄国革命与巴黎公社革命的方式非常不同。俄国革命以一种不同的方式爆发，而中国革命又以另一种形式爆发。古巴革命同中国革命的情况也不同。斯大林曾经不承认中国革命是无产阶级革命。他一直到1951年还认为，中国革命是一场资产阶级革命。当他们认真研究中国革命后，于是他承认那是一场共产主义革命。俄国革命完成后，四面受敌。列宁为了挽救革命被迫与德国签定条约。甚至在中央委员会内部，也有人指责列宁背叛了革命。中央委员会断然拒绝了列宁的提议，中央委员会召开了三次会议才解决了这一问题。我们正在尼泊尔所做的是承认国家力量的平衡，并领导人民进行一场新型的革命。那些从旧的革命形式观点看我们的人会说我们已经彻底垮了。然而，那些以革命运动的观点看我们的人会发现我们是最有活力的共产主义者。我们在1991年建立了联合中心。我们把1990年运动视为背叛。但是人们当时不接受这一点。当人们不相信时，于是我们也加入议会。在那时，许多象阿乍得同志那样的革命者说我们失败了。三年后，革命国际运动宣布我们为右倾机会主义者，并把我们从革命国际运动中开除。关于这件事，他们有大量的资料。为了联合抵制选举，他们还宣布只有莫汗·比克艾母才是个革命者。当我们开始人民战争时，世界上所有的修正主义者都认为我们是傻瓜。他们说我们会在10个月内就化为灰烬。但是，10年以后我们仍然存在。在第一次和谈期间，象阿扎德同志那样的人认为我们会罢手。然而，我们是否以科学的方式看待革命，或者我们是否应用20世纪的革命公式，这些是首要问题吗？我们有过象尼共（联合马列）那样的党，那个党为了发展而去搞阶级调和。我们在尼泊尔做的一切充满风险和挑战。但是，如果没有这些挑战和风险，世界上又怎会有革命发生？

当我们应对这些挑战时，就会表现出有时我们偏左了，有时我们偏右了。在革命过程中，如果有人朝左走，那么他们是左派。如果他们转向右边，那么他们就成了右派。我们在用我们的两条腿走路。有时我们伸出左脚，有时我们伸出右脚。就是用我们的两条腿走路，我们完成了10年的斗争。当我们伸出右脚时，有人就指责我们是右派。当我们伸出左脚时，他们就叫我们左派。只有我们用两只脚走路时，那才是科学的。

问：We see indications that the CA and republic are not on the horizon. If

so, what are your preparations?

我们感到制宪会议和共和国不会实现了。如果那样，你们准备怎么办？

答：We have not thought that possibilities are exhausted. But the situation has

gone a bit awry. Against this, people have to raise their voice. When we

explained in our recent statement about being committed to peaceful means, we included that statement after much deliberation. We thought that it was possible to maintain ceasefire and go ahead with a peaceful people’s movement. It is possible to go via constituent assembly to democratic republic. This way has to be peaceful. If this is not to be, then Nepali people will go for an uprising. If people go for such a revolt, then CPN(Maoist) will support the revolt.

答：我们不认为一点可能性都没了。但是，情况有点偏差。人民应该表达他们的不满。当我们最近发表关于和平活动的声明时，我们是经过深思熟虑的。我们认为可能保持停火，而以和平人民运动的方式前进。有可能通过制宪会议来实现民主共和国。这种方式必须是和平的。如果不成，那么尼泊尔人民就会发动一场起义。如果人民发动这样的起义，那么尼泊尔共产党（毛主义）会支持起义。

问：After you talked with the Misturaled UN team, you were looking satisfied.

What transpired there?

在您同联合国小组谈过话后，您看上去还满意。发生了什么？

答：There cannot be a universal arrangement for arms management across the

world. Nepal has a unique context. According to our own context, we will manage. I was happy that they acknowledged that they could not replicate the examples of Mozambique and East Timor. Further, they agreed that the prime minister’s letter was not in accordance with the eight-point agreement.

世界上没有对武装管理的通用模式。尼泊尔的情况是特殊的。根据我们自己的想法，我们可以管理。让我高兴的是，他们认识到他们不能照搬莫桑比克和东帝汶的模式。而且，他们认同总理的信违反了8点协议。

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