普拉昌达同志在第二轮高峰和谈前夕接受采访
INTERVIEW WITH PRACHANDA
Excerpts of an interview with Chairman of the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist), Prachanda, taken on the eve of the much-hyped October 8 Summit Talks between his party and the ruling seven-party alliance:
在世人瞩目的10月8日尼泊尔共产党(毛主义)和七党联盟高峰和谈前夕，本报对尼泊尔共产党(毛主义)主席普拉昌达进行了采访，以下是摘录：
Q. Will the CPN-M be participating in the October 8 talks?
问：尼泊尔共产党(毛主义)会参加10月8日的和谈吗？
Prachanda: There is no certainty as to the question of participation in the talks. Interactions to this end are going on with the parties, but nothing is confirmed yet.
普拉昌达：这里不存在是否参加和谈的问题。关于这次和谈，我们一直在同各政党协商，但仍然没有确定。
Q. So what is the reality then?
问：那么情况怎样呢？
Prachanda: We haven't been able to agree on the way forward. What we feel is that the 12-point understanding against the feudal autocracy was aimed against the excesses of the then Royal Army and the present Nepal army. The 8-point understanding was the result of an attempt to move forward with the 12-point understanding. But since then the seven-party government has deviated from the spirit of these historical understandings.
普拉昌达：我们还没有就下一步行动达成共识。我们认为反对封建独裁制的12点协定是为了对付当时王军和现在尼泊尔国家军的过火行为。8点协定是对12点协定的进一步完善。但是此后七党联盟政府就背离了这些历史性协定的精神。
Q. Could you cite some examples of the deviation?
问：您能举出一些关于背离的例子吗？
Prachanda: The way in which the letter to the UN was written, with the intention of separating the Maoist army from its arms, contrary to the initial agreement of managing both armies and their arms in the same manner and calling the UN for monitoring, is the most potent example of this deviation. This is a very dangerous thing. This was an attack on the spirit of the April movement. The political outlet the eight- and 12-point understandings had promised was effectively blocked for us. Our greatest objection is to this very issue.
普拉昌达：在给联合国的信中提到解除毛主义军队的武装，就违背了最初协定中讲的以同样方式管理双方军队及其武器并请联合国监督的条文，这是背离的典型例子。这是非常危险的事情。这是对4月人民运动精神的打击。在8点协定和12点协定中做出的关于各方政治出路的保证，对我们不起作用了。这是我们坚决反对的。
Q. And yet, after all the dispute, you are still in the talks. Sometimes your relationship with Prime Minister Girija Prasad Koirala looks cold and sometimes warm. You look extremely optimistic as soon as you step into Baluwatar. And a couple of weeks later you again look hopeless. What kind of spell has the PM cast over you? Or is it the other way round?
问：然而，在所有争论之后，你们仍然在对话，有时您与总理吉里佳·普拉萨德·柯伊拉腊的关系看上去冷淡，有时却密切。您来到巴鲁华特看上去非常乐观，而几个星期前您还看上去很失望的样子。总理对您施加什么法术吗？或者有什么其它原因？
Prachanda: This no spell. This time around too we have made it clear that we will neither head back to the jungle, nor will we leave the negotiating table. A power centre seems to be in a hurry to detach us from the dialogue process. But we are not willing to be detached. Issues like restructuring of the state, constituent assembly, democratic republic-- issues which were raised through the sacrifice of thousands of lives during the people’s war—have today become national slogans. Because, these issues have fallen within our rights, within our responsibilities.
普拉昌达：没有法术。这回我们再次声明我们既不会回到丛林，也不会离开谈判桌。有某种势力似乎迫切想让我们离开和谈。但是我们不会离开。诸如重建国家，制宪会议，民主共和国等问题，最初是在人民战争期间，通过数千烈士的牺牲提出的，而今天已经变成了国家的口号。因为这些问题关系到我们的权利和义务。
Q. What kind of environment marks the informal talks between you and the PM? It seems there is lot of love and affection between you two?
问：您与总理进行非正式会谈时的气氛是怎样的呢？似乎你们两位的交情很好？
Prachanda: Frankly, the two of us have always been at odds ever since our first meeting four and a half years ago. And yet, the country's overall situation compels such interactions between us.
普拉昌达：坦白地说，自从4个半年前我们首次见面以来，我们一直在争论。但是，国家的形势迫使我们改善关系。
Q. Hasn’t the goodwill between two of you increased in these four years?
问：这4年来你们的关系改善了吗？
Prachanda: There have been occasions where this did happen. During the forging of the 12-point understanding, this goodwill had gone up tremendously. Similarly, the rigors that went into the formation of the eight-point understanding had shown the courage Girija Babu had displayed. Because our agreement on dissolving the parliament and forming a new (interim) government definitely enhanced our mutual respect for each other. But later, the manner in which the letter to the UN was written arose our suspicion. The kind of political stability that was needed in him was missing. After that, the way he spoke in public let down the masses. We were also disappointed by his comments. Despite all those agreements, he couldn't stand by his words.
普拉昌达：的确有这方面的事例。在签定12点协定时这种友好关系得到很大发展。同样，在签定8点协定时，吉里佳也表现出勇气。因为我们关于解散议会并成立新的临时政府的协议确实加强了彼此之间的尊重。但之后，在他给联合国的信的态度上引起了我们的怀疑。他政治态度的稳定性正在消失。之后，他在公开场合的言论就让群众失望了。我们也很失望。他抛开所有这些协议而食言了。
Q. But there is still some hope, isn’t there?
问：但还是有希望的，对吗？
Prachanda: Let’s not say there is no hope. The talks are going on because there is still some hope left. But then, the kind of a sea of good feelings you are hinting at is not there. At some points, the situation demands it; at others, it is genuine goodwill.
普拉昌达：我们不会说没有希望。和谈在进行中，因此就存在希望。但是，您暗示的那种浓厚的情谊不在了。可以说是形势决定的；不过，那是真正的友好情谊。
Q. But there's no bitterness?
问：您没有痛苦吗？
Prachanda: There isn’t. I think he (Koirala) has the role of a very important character. Despite the apparent barriers, he is very important for a political outlet in Nepal. And I believe that at this point, he stands at a crossroads—one that will determine whether he will be remembered as a great hero or a villain. The way I see it, at this point, he teeters on the brink. Looking at his recent activities and comments, the people are worried that he might be becoming a villain instead of a hero. He stands on the edge—he can slip and fall any time.
普拉昌达：没有。我认为他（柯伊拉腊）是一个能发挥作用的重要人物。尽管有很多明显的障碍，他对于尼泊尔的政治前途还是非常重要的。我认为在这一点上，他正处于十字路口，那将决定他会被后人看作是伟大的英雄还是个历史罪人。我看到，在这一点上，他犹豫不决。从他最近的言论和表现来看，人民担心他会成为历史罪人而不是个英雄。他正处于这种悬崖边缘，他随时都会掉下去。
Q. Will you put forward this very thing during the October 8 talks?
问：您会在10月8日的和谈中提到这一关键问题吗？
Prachanda: Not only on October 8, let me frankly tell you that I am going to meet him (Koirala) in a very short while. I will tell him the same thing in this meeting also.
People may think that we (Prachanda and Koirala) have reached some secret agreements during our meetings. Last time also, I had flatly told him "Girijababu, our role has come to a very critical point. You are in such an important place. If you still side with the repressive elements of the royal army, it will be a really bad thing in history. If you move forward as directed by the 12-point and eight-point understandings, you will become the main character in history. I will also have a role, but that will be only a supporting role." I have clearly told him that he will become the main character. I have told him to stick to the role of that historic character. I meet him again and again to remind him of this.
普拉昌达：不仅是在10月8日，我坦白地告诉你，过一会我就同他（柯伊拉腊）会面。我会把这件事告诉他。
人们也许会以为我们（普拉昌达和柯伊拉腊）在会谈期间已经达成了某种秘密协议。上次，我就坦白地告诉他，“吉里佳巴布，我们的作用已经到一个关键时刻，你正处于一个重要的位置上。如果你继续同那些王军中的反动分子合作，那将是不可饶恕的历史罪行。如果你按照12点协定和8点协定的要求行事，你就会成为历史上的杰出人物。我也能发挥作用，但那只是支持的作用。”我明确地告诉他他会成为杰出人物。我已经告诉他应该发挥历史性作用，我一次次地提醒他这一点。
Q. These days the SPA leaders say that you (Maoists) are interested more in another mass movement than in the ongoing peace process. What do you say?
问：这些天来七党联盟领导人说你们（毛主义者）对发动群众运动更有兴趣而不是和谈。您怎么看？
Prachanda: We want a peaceful exit to the crisis. We have come up to here with the same intent. After forming the government, the seven parties are getting closer to the structures of the old regime. This makes us worry that a peaceful solution to the crisis may not be possible. Therefore we have said that the preparation for another popular movement should not be abandoned because the SPA government may eventually decide to take the side of the feudal elements.
普拉昌达：我们想和平解决危机。我们就是带着这种愿望来到这的。政府成立以后，七党就日益同旧政权接近。这使我们担心和平解决危机会不可能。因此，我们说如果七党联盟政府最终倒向封建势力一边，我们就不应放弃准备另一场人民运动。
Q. What is the possibility for such a movement?
问：发生这样的运动有多大可能？
Prachanda: It's quite possible. We haven't said that we will break the ceasefire and walk out of the talks. It's our assertion that if the SPA government goes against the spirit of the April movement that created a new history then the same people who took part in the April movement will stand up for the new uprising.
普拉昌达：非常可能。我们没有说过我们会破坏停火并退出和谈。我们声明如果七党联盟政府倒向反对创造了新历史的4月人民运动的一边，那么曾参加过4月人民运动的那些人会起来发动一场新的起义。
Q. Now it seems both you and the SPA need each other. You need the SPA's support to balance the international situation. And they need your support and participation to keep the national politics in balance. But instead of consolidating your ties, both of you seem to be blaming each other?
问：现在看起来，你们和七党联盟彼此是互相需要对方的。你们需要七党联盟的支持来平衡国际形势。而他们需要你们的支持和参与来保持国内政治的平衡。但是看起来你们不但不巩固你们的关系，而是互相指责，为什么？
Prachanda: We had said in the very beginning that whoever will try to go against the earlier agreements between us (SPA, Maoists) will be betraying the Nepali people. We have told even Girijababu (PM Koirala) that the seven parties are now quarrelling over the same agreements. But they raise the issue of donations and all.
普拉昌达：我们从一开始就说过如果谁试图反对我们（七党联盟，毛主义者）之间签定的协议，那就是背叛尼泊尔人民。我们甚至告诉过吉里佳巴布（总理柯伊拉腊）七党现在正为我们的协议而争吵。但他们却提出捐款之类的问题来回避。
Q. What if the issue of monarchy is decided through a constituent assembly?
问：通过制宪会议来解决君主制的问题如何？
Prachanda: We don't have any objection to this idea if there is a consensus on other issues. Because the 12-point and eight-point understanding were reached to make the constituent assembly possible. But we are talking about holding a referendum (to decide the fate of monarchy) because we think this is more democratic. The elected representatives of the constituent assembly will draft the new constitution. And it will be more democratic if all the people are given a direct chance to decide the issue of monarchy.
普拉昌达：如果能在这类问题上达成共识，我们不反对这个主意。因为12点协议和8点协议已使制宪会议成为可能。但是我们想通过一场全民公决来决定君主制的命运，因为我们认为这样更民主。制宪会议选出的代表将起草一部新宪法。如果全体人民直接投票来解决君主制问题，那会更民主。
Q. But it is the UML's proposal, isn't it?
问：但这是尼泊尔共产党（联合马列）的建议，对吗？
Prachanda: Certainly, this proposal was put forward by the UML. But during the course of discussion, we thought that it is more democratic and therefore we agreed on this proposal. But we haven't made the referendum issue a precondition.
But the prime minister is saying many elements will get a chance to become active in a referendum. This risk will be there in the constituent assembly elections as well. Both processes (constituent assembly and referendum) face this risk.
普拉昌达：是的，这个建议是尼泊尔共产党（联合马列）提出的。在讨论期间，我们认为这样更民主，因此就同意了这个提议。但我们并没有把全民公决作为一个前提条件。因为总理说一些人会利用全民公决来活动。这种危险在制宪会议选举时也会有。两件事（制宪会议和全民公决）都面临这种危险。
Q. It seems both the SPA and the Maoist leaders have not been able to understand the people's desperation. Don't you feel you may de-link yourselves from the people's feeling?
问：似乎七党联盟和毛主义领导人都没有了解人民的渴望。您不觉得你们自己会脱离人民吗？
Prachanda: Definitely. But the situation is not the same for the two sides. Because they (SPA leaders) are now in the government and have become MPs and ministers. But we have a compulsion of moving forward in a different way. During the Dashain holidays, I visited Sindhupalchowk, Tatopani, Naubise, Daman of Makwanpur and Pokhara. I also experienced the cable car journey and visited Mankamana as well this time. In my experience, the people are desperate and are agitated within.
普拉昌达：的确。但两者的情况不同。七党联盟领导人现在是政府里的总理和部长。而我们在另一条路上继续前进。在德赛节期间，我访问了辛度帕尔乔克，马克万普尔和博卡拉等地。我还参观了电缆车并访问了曼克马纳。在这些活动中，我看到了人民情绪激动的热情欢呼。
Q. Don't the obstacles seen in the peace-talks increase the people's desperation?
问：难道和谈中的障碍没有增加人民的失望吗？
Prachanda: Kishor ji, I don't think this (situation) will last long. We are also intensely preparing for the talks. In case the talks fail, we feel that we will have to take certain steps to address the people's desperation. You will know about these steps after a week. Let's keep it a secret for now!
普拉昌达：吉舍尔·吉，我认为这种形势不会持续很久的。我们一直在努力准备和谈。万一和谈失败，我们会采取断然措施来满足人民的愿望。一个星期后你就会看到这些措施。让我们暂时保密吧！
Q. How optimistic are you about the October 8 Summit Talks?
问：您对10月8日的高峰会谈为何如此乐观？
Prachanda: I am not very optimistic.
普拉昌达：我并不是非常乐观。
Q. Is there any possibility that the talks will not go ahead?
问：和谈是否会出现僵局呢？
Prachanda: I do see that possibility. But the possibility that the talks will be held is also there. Shortly, I am going to put my things to Girijababu in black and white.
普拉昌达：我的确看到这种可能性。但是进行和谈的可能也是有的。很快，我们就会向吉里佳巴布摊牌。
Q. There is also this rumour that the talks will be deferred for a week?
问：有传言说这次和谈会再次推迟一星期？
Prachanda: That's not true. We want to hold the talks on October 8. But we don't want the gathering of the leaders on October 8 to look like a Gaijatra. The Nepali people desperately want a positive conclusion; they are hoping for the country to take a clear direction. If that is not fulfilled, there is no point in holding the talks. We don't think it's necessary to sit for talks just to conclude that no conclusion could be drawn.
普拉昌达：那不是真的。我们想在10月8日进行和谈。但是我们不想10月8日到场的领导人都象吉里佳那样。尼泊尔人民盼望着有个积极的结果；他们希望国家有个光明的前途。如果人民的愿望不能实现，那么就没有和谈的必要了。我们不认为毫无结果的谈判是必要的。
Q. It's not that the talks will have to continue if the October 8 talks do not take place, or is it?
问：如果没有10月8日和谈，那么和谈就没有必要继续了，对吗？
Prachanda: It's not like that. We don't say to postpone the talks to leave the talks process or to break it. What we have said is let's take some more time to prepare for the talks if the homework done so far is not enough. Otherwise, the leaders gather and the gathering gets much publicity but nothing comes out at the end-- this will only send out a negative message. In reality, our emphasis is on reaching a consensus. If that does not happen, we will take a big decision for the people within a few days. The people are in a huge uncertainty for the past four months; we won't let this situation to continue. We are ready to make another sacrifice from our side for the sake of the country. We won't let a situation come where the Nepali people could blame us.
普拉昌达：不是的。我们没说过要推迟和谈或中断和谈。我们是说，如果和谈准备的不充分，那么我们就再花些时间准备。否则，领导人们聚集到一起并被世人瞩目，而和谈又无果而终，那只会发出消极的信息。事实上，我们强调达成共识。如果不能实现，我们会在几天内为人民做出一个重大决定。人民在过去的4个月中一直生活在不稳定之中，我们不能让这种情况继续下去。我们准备为了国家的前途再次做出牺牲。我们不能让尼泊尔人民指责我们的局面出现。
Q. Could that sacrifice be remaining silent on the issue of monarchy?
问：这种牺牲会在君主制问题上保持沉默吗？
Prachanda: No, not that. We may walk out by handing over everything to the seven parties. Let us just go to the people. We can move ahead with this much right. Then the seven parties can do whatever they want; we may say that constituent assembly is enough for us.
普拉昌达：不会。我们会把些事交给七党。而我们仅仅做群众工作。这样我们会前进一大步。那时七党可以做他们想做的；对于我们有制宪会议就足够了。
Q. Mr Chairman, it seems you are very disappointed. These expressions of yours indicate that you feel weary and tired?
问：主席先生，看起来您很失望。您这么说让人觉得您感到疲惫和厌倦？
Prachanda: The people are desperate for peace; I am concerned that if that desperation is not addressed in time, there will be another danger. What you see as disappointment in my expressions is definitely not disappointment. Yes, it may be the reflection of my concern. It could be a reflection of my agitated mind. The people should not be left un-addressed for a long time. Last year also, we had declared a three-month-long unilateral truce. Now, the seven parties are preoccupied with their own things even as the royalists are looking for a role again. The people feel suffocated. What we say is we should even be ready to make some sacrifices for a way-out. It's not disappointment.
普拉昌达：人民渴望和平；我关心是否这种渴望能尽早实现，因为还会有危险。你看我象是失望的样子，其实不是，那是我所关心的反映。那是我激动心情的反映。人民的要求不能长期拖延不解决。去年，我们也曾单方面宣布休战3个月。现在，七党在保皇派企图卷土重来的时候却只关心他们的既得利益。人民感到窒息。我们说我们准备做出些牺牲是为了有个了断。那不是失望。
Q. That way-out could be reached on October 8 itself?
问：10月8日的和谈会是一个了断吗？
Prachanda: May be, may be not.
普拉昌达：也许是，也许不是。
Q. You mean the October 8 talks may not be held at all?
问：您的意思是10月8日和谈不能解决一切？
Prachanda: Yes, it may not be.
普拉昌达：是的，可能不会。
(Interview by Kishor Nepal)
（翻译：红石）
「 支持！」
WYZXWK.COM
您的打赏将用于网站日常运行与维护。
帮助我们办好网站，宣传红色文化！
欢迎扫描下方二维码，订阅网刊微信公众号
